Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 October 30

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October 30

Grammatical?

I just took a multiple-choice exam in which one of the questions struck me as possibly being badly formed.

"No wait!", shouted the priest, ___

I chose "Have mercy!", but now I wonder if the comma after priest is permissible. Is it? And if so, would the correct answer have been "have mercy!"? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Please list all the choices. StuRat (talk) 01:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Stu, but, off the bat, it should be "No, wait!" with a comma after no. μηδείς (talk) 01:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Unless the priest were running an establishment where normally people have to queue. Like a casino, a brothel, a porn shop or a bank. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Are you really implying one has to wait in line at a casino, brothel, or pornographer in Australia? Are they state-run? Or run by bank tellers? μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I was joking, of course. I am not a frequenter of such places. The fourth one least of all, obviously.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

You would want to avoid any establishment that has "tellers", unless you know who they tell things to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

It was a timed test. I don't remember the other choices, just that they were obviously wrong. So what should go in the blank? Or is it only proper to say "No wait!, shouted the priest. "Have mercy!" Clarityfiend (talk) 02:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Presumably, the test asked you to choose the "least wrong" answer. I would certainly expect to see a comma. Obviously there can be no "right answer" to such a vague question, but styles vary and commas are often omitted in modern prose. Dbfirs 07:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The No wait bit isn't part of the multiple choice aspect of the question (and it may have said No, wait! on the test anyway). "have mercy!" is certainly a valid ending to that sentence, though whether it's correct for the test might depend on a broader context, particularly if it's testing comprehension of a broader passage. And yes, there should be a comma after "priest".--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think it should be a period, not a comma, after "priest". rʨanaɢ (talk) 09:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

That would depend on whether he said "No, wait! Have mercy!" as essentially a single utterance (that would require a comma after 'priest'), or whether he said the first part, then paused for a few moments, then said the second part (that would require a period). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:55, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

If you're going to treat "No, wait!" and "Have mercy!" as separate sentences by capitalizing have, there would indeed (in U.S. usage) normally be a full stop after "priest". Only if the direct discourse is taken to be "No, wait! have mercy!" (although that use of an internal exclamation point in a sentence is rather old-fashioned) would you use a comma, along with a lowercase h in have. Deor (talk) 15:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

So if I grok this right, it's "have" with a comma, "Have" with a period? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The capital Have with a period would still be wrong because it would become a direct quote not attributed to anyone. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"No, wait!" shouted the priest. "Have mercy!" or "No, wait," shouted the priest, "have mercy!". rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately neither was how it was presented. That accursed "!" threw me off. So it seems the question was badly formed, and I'm pretty sure they marked me wrong on it. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Your first example is wrong, Rjanag. We know the priest said, "No, wait!" in that case, but not who said, "Have mercy." μηδείς (talk) 00:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

That's absurd, Medeis; look at any novel that contains dialogue. When the quoted material preceding a "said Bob" or similar identifier is a complete sentence, the identifier is closed with a period, even if more from that speaker follows. A change of speaker is conventionally signaled by a paragraph break. Deor (talk) 00:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It's not absurd. You are just making the point that in a badly edited novel one can guess. μηδείς (talk) 16:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Gia

We recently discussed on the Humanities desk how in Italian the digraph -gi- is pronounced like our j, so that, e.g. Giovanni is pronounced /jo-vah-nee/ and not /jee-o-vah-nee/, etc.

But I've always wondered about the given name Gia (see GIA#Persons for a list of examples). I imagine it's a contraction of Giovanna (/jo-vah-na/), but is it pronounced /jee-a/ (as I've always assumed) or just /ja/, as it is in Giacomo (/jah-co-mo/, not /jee-ah-co-mo/)?

If the former, why, and are there any other exceptions to the rule? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The word già ("already, previously") is a single syllable, but the given name Gia is indeed two. Why? Couldn't tell you. But compare Lucia (three syllables) with Lucio (two). --Trovatore (talk) 01:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The article says "Gia" is short for "Gianna". Is that likewise pronounced "gee-ahn-uh"? Or is it like "john-uh"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Gianna is just two syllables. It's not exactly "john-ah" but that's probably the closest you can get in English. --Trovatore (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

That article Gia (name) has a footnote, in the references section, without any reference, which addresses exactly this question, saying that the name is English only, and derives from the three-syllable English pronunciation of "Gianna". Circumstantial evidence is that it:Giovanna_(nome) makes no mention of "Gia".  Card Zero  (talk) 02:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

It's a matter of stress. First of all, there are two ways of pronouncing the "g/c" in Italian. Before "a", "o", "u", it's like in "garden" and before "e", "i", it's "John". If you want [dʒ] before "a", "o", "u", you have to add an "i" after "g", which is only for orthografic reasons. You don't pronounce the "i". If you want [g] before "e", "i", you have to add a silent "h" after "g". It depends on the word if you treat the "i" as an orthografic letter or not and there are no accents indicating the stress like in Spanish (unless it's the last syllable to be stressed). The same goes with "c" ([k] or [tʃ]).--2.245.187.63 (talk) 15:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, occasionally accents are used to indicate stress. The first one that comes to mind is àncora ("anchor"), to distinguish it from ancora ("again, still"). But I agree it's not very common. --Trovatore (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think I get that. So, how does one know whether to treat an "i" as an orthografic letter or not? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably the same way you do in English. By context, and by simply learning all various rules and exceptions. Do you lead the race or do you have lead in your pencil? --Jayron32 18:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Drop round to my place tonight and maybe you'll find out.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Chinese help: Niehai Hua characters

What is the Chinese for the following Niehai Hua characters?

• Chin Wen-ch'ing -> Jin Wenching
• Fu Ts'ai-yün -> Fu Caiyun

That way people can easily look up information about them in Chinese.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Chin Wen-ch'ing would be Jin Wenqing.

You are correct that Fu Ts'ai-yün would be Fu Caiyun.

Marco polo (talk) 17:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you :) WhisperToMe (talk) 08:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Eejit

How do you pronounce this word? I do not understand the characters used to describe pronounciations either so... pleeease help me a little bit. Also, where does this word come from? Is it used only in Ireland or in the US and UK as well? Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 14:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The emphasis is on the "ee", and the "jit" part has a very short "i" vowel. So it becomes "ee - jt". It's actually the way of spelling how the word "idiot" is pronounced in Ireland. It is used in the UK, I think mainly because Sir Terry Wogan popularised it on his long-running radio programme. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec)It's the way that "idiot" is pronounced with an Irish accent, an exaggerated Irish accent, actually. And since the word is quite a common insult in Irish English, this spelling is quite recognisable in popular culture. I'm pretty sure it was used in Father Ted, for example. It's pronounced as it's written, with the emphasis on the first syllable. It would be recognisable in the UK, especially if the speaker is Irish, or if there's some context, but not as commonly used as in Ireland. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I tried to pronounce it right now and soemone in the office said: "Bless you!" So I must have pronounce it terrible. The j is pronounced as in Jack, right? Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 14:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Right.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Ohhh, I think I get it right... and the ee as in beer? So that's how the Irish pronounce idiot, interesting? I still don't can't differentiate an Irish accent, each Irish people I hear talk, seems to have different accents so I am not sure how's really an Irish accent. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 15:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

More like the ee as in bee, tree and fee. The whole word is something like EEE-jət. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The "ee" in "beer" is typically pronounced more like a short "i" rather than a long "e" - that is, "beer" rhymes with "ear". From what the others are saying here, it seems like "eedjit" is pronounced like "Egypt" without the "p". In English, especially in the US, any "d" sound followed by an "i" can potentially be slurred into a "j" sound. The most obvious of these is probably the pretty-much-offensive "Injun" instead of "Indian". The Acadian people in Louisiana came to be called "Cajun", which is a standard term. And Yosemite Sam (who has red hair and a short temper, so he might be an Irish stereotype) once said to Bugs, "Ya gol-durned idjit!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Depends how you prounce Egypt, I guess! For me the second vowel in Egypt is a definite i (as in igloo) whereas in eejit it's a much shorter uh type sound, almost as if the vowel weren't there. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The Prounce of Egypt?  :) -- 17:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I remember someone writing in to the Terry Wogan show, saying that she was in the car when she heard the newsreader say "George Bush is in Egypt" and thought the newsreader had actually said "George Bush is an eejit". That had me crying with laughter! --TammyMoet (talk) 14:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It's actually "idiot" pronouced as if it was a word in the Irish language, with a fada on the first i. Under the standard rules of Irish pronunciation, ídiot would come out sounding like "eejit", a two-syllable word with a long i sounding like English "ee", the d between "slender" vowels being palatalised and sounding like English "j", and the vowel of the second syllable reduced to a schwa. It's a bit like the Irish pronunciation of "film" as "fillum" - the extra syllable is the Irish epenthetic vowel, which frequently intrudes between adjacent consonants (dearg, "red", is pronounced "jarrig", and gorm, "blue", is pronounced "gorrum"). Oddly enough, most people who say "eejit" or "fillum" don't know a word of Irish, or even understand Irish pronunciation. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:18, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Ohhhh cool! Now I wish I could find the standard rules of Irish pronunciation... that sounds awesome! Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 12:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You could try Irish orthography, but be warned, it's complicated.--Nicknack009 (talk) 13:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

When I had INternet access I downloaded a course of Irish, but when my laptop got broken I lost it... Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 13:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Happy Halloween Everybody at the RefDesk Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 18:17, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ms Bono. In the film Philomena the eponymous character calls the Steve Coogan/Martin Sixsmith character a "feckin eejit". Itsmejudith (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, that's kind of an Irish thing, right? I still wonder why so many es when someone is referring to the way Irish people speak? Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 15:47, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Spanish ch

I often hear that the "ch" is rather like [tɕ] or even [ts] than [tʃ]. What variation is that and is it even common in Spain?--2.245.187.63 (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I would like to help you but I don't understand those symbols. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 16:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

To your ear, does the "ch" in words like "chili" sound the same in both English and Spanish? I think that's what the OP is trying to ask. (To me, as with you, those IPA symbols are gibberish.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

For example, "chico" sounds like "tsico" [ts]. [tɕ] is hard to describe without knowledge of Slavic languages. It's like "ch" in English but definitely softer. But Baseball Bugs' answer is a good paraphrase.--2.245.187.63 (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, is the same "ch". Like in "Cha cha cha" Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 16:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to know if there are regions with different pronunciation like seseo or yeísmo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.245.187.63 (talk) 17:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The standard Spanish pronunciation is [tʃ]. I believe Miss Bono is Cuban, and I think that the standard pronunciation prevails across all or most of Latin America. It would be helpful to hear from someone familiar with regional varieties of Spanish in Spain whether any of these varieties have alternative pronunciations of this phoneme. Marco polo (talk) 17:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

(EC) I'm not from Spain, but from Cuba. As far as I know the only thing that changes between regions here is the accent and some words like cutara for chancleta (flip-flop), we said chancleta in the capital city whilen in the West they say cutara, the word would actually be chancla. Another word is puerco (pig), in the capital city we say it that way but in the West they say macho... the word would be cerdo. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 17:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Looking at http://www.forvo.com/word/chico/, the samples by wordfor and Aythami have [tʃ], whereas fernando_tala and Ainess pronounce it with [tɕ] (or maybe even [tsʲ], for Ainess). So yes, there is certainly some variation, though I have no idea about its distribution.—Emil J. 17:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Miss Bono, I cannot express my joy at learning that 'macho' means "pig". This is gonna be a good day. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Jack In the capital city macho means hombre and in the West macho means pig but no as an offence but like pork, the animal. May I ask why this is going to be a good day? Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 17:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I have an abhorrence for machismo in all its forms and manifestations, most particularly my own home-grown version. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Jack, macho and hembra are regular reflexes (the expected developments) in Spanish of the Latin masculus and femina. I do not know the source of the pork meaning, but it's not unlikely it simply refers to boar, rather than sow meat. English is the language that gives macho the narrower meaning butch. μηδείς (talk) 03:15, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. It's still close enough for my purpose, which is to inform any individuals who try to enmachulate me that in Cuban Spanish it means 'pig'. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yes... pork it's meat, but I was trying to find a word referring to 'pig' without sounding insulting. Jackt you have to understand that not everybody knows that 'macho' means 'pigglet'... it is only in the West, people of the Center and the East simply say 'pig', (the animal not the offence)... Now I feel guilty because you think that 'macho' in Spanish is an offensive word. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 12:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

(* sniggers sinisterly *) Making people feel guilty is my supreme ambition in life. As one my Halloween heroes wrote: "Winning is never enough - others must lose". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 13:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

:'( Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 13:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It would be still nice to get some more opinions concerning my actual question.--2.245.126.133 (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I said befor that I could help you if you explain your questions without those characters I don't quite understand [ [tɕ] [ts] [tʃ] ] Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 15:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I've already explained it without using IPA. By the way, it's not difficult to learn it. Maybe you'll understand this: If you say "chico", is your tongue further forward than pronouncing the "ch" in for example English "chase"?--2.246.8.31 (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

We have an article with subsection which should answer the original question: Ch (digraph) - Spanish. Despite what that says, i did not notice a difference during my travels in northwestern Mexico as well as the rest of Mexico and much of Latin America. El duderino ^(abides) 06:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there's nothing about variations in the article.--2.246.8.31 (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The first sentence refers to variation: "ch is pronounced as a voiceless postalveolar affricate [tʃ] in both Castillian and Latin American, or a voiceless postalveolar fricative [ʃ] in Andalusian and Northwestern Mexico." El duderino ^(abides) 21:51, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

How to write out "two hundred and twenty-five millionth" in Greek?

I would be using it as an adjective for the word "anniversary" but want to avoid the form "225 millionth" in the Greek. It takes the Milky Way Galaxy that long to do a full rotation about its center.

I would need it spelled out in the Latin alphabet, but might benefit from having it in Greek alphabet too.

Thanks, Bill Finch — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.189.175.206 (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Ancient Greek: διακόσιοι εἴκοσι πέντε εκατομμυριοστός. Might be wrong in details. Wait for somebody more competent.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:53, 31 October 2013 (UTC)