Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 June 23

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June 23

Is 'denigrate' a racist word?

You are making a 'nigger' out of something or someone, and implicitly that's considered a bad thing. However, I don't see that the word is avoided by the mainstream press. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Is that a serious question? It's not "nigger" it's simply "black". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

That is nonsensical and false. Neither "denigrate" nor "niggardly" (nor "picnic", to mention another urban legend in passing) has anything whatsoever to do with the word "nigger"! --Orange Mike | Talk 14:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, denigrate does contain the stem of a Latin word meaning "black", and so has a remote etymological relationship. But you might as well ask whether the names of the countries "Niger" and "Nigeria" are racist! By the way, the Latin word for "black" in an emotionally negative sense was ater more often than niger... AnonMoos (talk) 14:21, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

According to the OED, denigrate is derived from the "participial stem of Latin dēnigrāre to blacken", and means, among other things, "To blacken, sully, or stain (character or reputation); to blacken the reputation of (a person, etc.); to defame". Thus, the word does not refer to black people at all, but to the idea of "blackening" (soiling or dirtying) someone's reputation. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

It's clear that 'denigrate' was originally not meant to be, uhh, denigrating to black people. However, things change, and words acquire new meanings and new associations are established. 'Negro' was in the past not, well, sorry for the repetition, denigrating, but it is now and I am seriously asking if that's the case of "denigrate." OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I doubt it. I've never heard it being considered a racist term. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 17:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Neither have I.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that some terms may be made racist and unacceptable over time by virtue of being appropriated by racists. i.e. if people regularly started using the word 'niggard(ly)', for example around black people with the obvious connotation that 'I'm only saying this because it sounds like another well-known n-word, but will feign ignorance and fall back on the precise dictionary definition if offence is caused', then I'd imagine that before too long, it would be considered unacceptable to use that word in polite conversation. Or if a particular false etymology became well-known and unquestioningly accepted by the masses, I guess. Though I don't think that the word 'picnic' has ever seriously been considered offensive. Or 'crowbar', for that matter. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 19:45, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

It comes down to the root source of "black" meaning bad, and conversely, "white" meaning good. (Think of white hats and black hats in cowboy movies.) I don't believe this association, at it's root, is racist. It goes back to us being diurnal, so being adapted to daylight and fearing the dark, where we can't see what's going on. If we were nocturnal, on the other hand, the dark might be comforting, and daylight might make us feel nervous and exposed. The evidence that it's not a racial thing is that many cultures had the concept of black as bad before they ever encountered people of varying races. StuRat (talk) 18:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The ancient Romans probably barely even knew that black people might exist (according to unverifiable travelers' stories) when they started memorializing the anniversary of the Battle of the Allia as dies ater or "black day", the most mournful day of the Roman calendar (kind of the Roman Tisha B'Av -- though there's nothing about this on our Battle of the Allia article, and only a little bit on the Roman festivals article...). -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:46, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

This concern is on a par with being concerned that "sinister" is an insult to left handed people. HiLo48 (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

"Sinister" is an insult to left-handed people. Looie496 (talk) 19:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Only if left-handed people are directly accused of being sinister simply because of their left-handedness. But to use the word in some other context (e.g. "John Carradine had a reputation for playing sinister roles") is not an insult to anyone. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:40, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

For reference: Controversies about the word "niggardly". BrainyBabe (talk) 20:39, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Names of Honduras

What are the names of Honduras in Miskito and Garifuna?  Liam987(talk) 15:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

In Miskito its the same, Honduras, but in Garifuna its Indura. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.85.213 (talk) 23:27, 23 June 2012 (UTC)