Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 October 22

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October 22

ab- father?

Thanks AnonMoos for your link above to Ab (Semitic) [1]. My immediate reaction was to ask myself, is not "abba" a vocative form of ab(u)-? The link seems to confirm that is the case. I was also reminded of the PIE form awos found in atavus, the Latin for great grandfather. (at- being a PIE form for father) The root seems quite widespread. The question remains. Is there some more formal form for "father" than ab(-ba) in Arabic or Aramaic? My guess is that this may be the standard, unmarked form. μηδείς (talk) 04:43, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The basic unmodifed unaffixed form is stem 'Ab-, which becomes 'Abu(m/n) with the addition of a nominative case vowel and possible mimation/nunation. Probably it's one of the CVC-stem nouns (such as yad "hand" etc.) which doesn't go back to any original Semitic consonantal root (though it has been incorporated into the consonantal root system of various Semitic languages). "Abba" is certainly not the "standard unmarked form" in Arabic (where my dictionary doesn't list any form with double consonant), nor in Biblical Hebrew (where "abba" doesn't occur in the Jewish Bible at all). AnonMoos (talk) 07:56, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

M'yes, Aba appears to be something in modern Hebrew that you determined probably came from Aramaic (and which makes sense given that the ending is an aleph in Hebrew). Is it avnu or avu in Modern Hebrew though when you say our father? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Tishrei 5772 16:15, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I would think the Modern Hebrew form for "our father" would be av shelanu. Modern Israeli Hebrew doesn't normally use possessive suffixes on the possessed noun anymore; instead it uses a periphrastic construction of "POSSESSUM + shel-POSSESSOR(SUFFIX)." --Miskwito (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Although, I should mention (but I presume you already know, from looking at your userpage) that a more formal or archaic form would be avinu (as in Avinu Malkeinu). The site Medeis links to below has several modern versions of the Lord's Prayer in which "our father" is translated with avinu. --Miskwito (talk) 20:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's the Lord's Prayer in transcription from the Aramaic http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-aramaic.html:

Abwoon d'bwashmaya,

Nethqadash shmakh,

Teytey malkuthakh.

Nehwey tzevyanach aykanna d'bwashmaya aph b'arha.

Hawvlan lachma d'sunqanan yaomana.

Washboqlan khaubayn (wakhtahayn)

aykana daph khnan shbwoqan l'khayyabayn.

Wela tahlan l'nesyuna.

Ela patzan min bisha.

Metol dilakhie malkutha wahayla wateshbukhta l'ahlam almin.

The source, http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ has the prayer in 1697 languages and is a great resource for comparison. μηδείς (talk) 18:21, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the first thing says אבונח (though the letters look strange to me), which would be something akin to Avunakh. Doesn't help with Modern Hebrew though. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Tishrei 5772 18:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Porgy and Bess question

hello,

can you explain why it's "I Loves You Porgy" and not "I Love You Porgy"? Fact is, it is not a typo; I think it is some kind of dialectical grammar, if yes, what kind? Thanks.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 15:21, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

All of Porgy and Bess was written in African American Vernacular English, or rather, a white American's impression of it. Not only does Bess sing "I Loves You Porgy", but Porgy sings "Bess, You Is My Woman Now". My father used to have an album of a Russian pianist playing some familiar songs from Porgy and Bess, but the song titles had been back-translated into English from Russian, leading to such gems as "My Dear Has Gone" and "It Isn't So Necessary". Angr (talk) 16:25, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The only place I have ever heard such constructions as "I loves yah" is from depictions of regional dialects of the British isles. A lot of Black American English does have an indentured-servant origin. But ess dropping in all persons is more likely than expansion of the 3PS verb form. I'd fall out of my seat if heard it in, say, Harlem. Unless the speakers had just watched Gollum in The Lord of the Rings. Understand Gollum was from Somerset. μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Wait wait, Gollum, Somerset? I admit little familiarity with British accents, but isn't that West Country? And isn't that supposed to be, or mocked as pirate talk? Also, doesn't it involve a tendency to voice 's', making it z-like? That would ruin Gollum's constant hissing, his "dussssst" and "it burnsss usssss!" Pfly (talk) 08:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

The Shire was in the West Midlands but Gollum was from the Gladden Fields on the other side of the Misty Mountains. Which I pictured as to the South. A look at the map shows maybe East Midlands would have been better. The /s/ voicing in Somerset is initial, though, not final. I am not sure I want to take Jackson's hackwork as canonical for Westron in any case. μηδείς (talk) 16:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, before posting I looked our Smeagol page and was redirected to Gollum, and was amused to see the hatnote "Smeagol" redirects here. For the sea slug, see Smeagol (gastropod). Pfly (talk) 08:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

These are also features of Newfoundland English, although Porgy and Bess was presumably not set there... Adam Bishop (talk) 08:58, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Some things to note is 1) African American Vernacular English has changed over time, so what is recognized as African American Vernacular English today may be significantly different than what was spoken by African Americans 100 or 150 or 200 years ago. Furthermore, there are distinctive regional variations, so there are obvious differences between, say, how an African American resident of Harlem, New York would speak compared to one from, say, rural Alabama. 2) White writers and performers would tend to caricaturize black characters and speech patterns (see Minstrel show), so it may not be that such writers were faithfully reproducing African American dialects, but were instead producing speech that was expected to be entertaining for their audiences. Compare also the songs of Stephen Foster, especially if you can find them in his original spellings. The sort of music that white writers would compose for white audiences, which supposedly represented "black vernacular" sounds very different from music that black writers would compose for black audiences. Compare Gerswhin to Robert Johnson, for example, and you can see a distinct difference between the two. It is a useful comparison to make, because the two were almost exact contemporaries, so you get a very good idea of the difference between a white person's impression of black singing, and an actual black person singing his own compositions. --Jayron32 15:24, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Gershwin only wrote the music. The libretto was by DuBose Heyward, who also wrote the novel that the opera is based on. Angr (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Steeking, et al

Steeking

What are the bottom two languages? I'm guessing the bottom is Malay, and the next-to-bottom looks somewhat like Thai, but not quite. I know that the others are Chinese, English, and Vietnamese. Nyttend (talk) 15:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The second is Thai, but maybe with some errors, such as ones that happen when you copypaste from explorer to word. --Soman (talk) 15:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The last is definitely bahasa indonesia.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 15:57, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I love getting gently steeked on a Friday after work. Or is that stoken?μηδείς (talk) 16:51, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/OffMyHead.jpg

Does anyone have a clue how they came up with "steek"? I get that the intended meaning is "close the door/gate". Marco polo (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, steek does in fact mean "to shut, close, fasten or lock (a window, door, or the like)" in Scots; the question is, what dictionary were these people using that led them to believe it was a common word in modern-day English? Angr (talk) 18:03, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

It's got a certain mis-steek about it. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Rahel and Estha(ppen)

hii. In the process of reading God of Small Things, and I'm not sure how to pronounce these names. What would be the native pronounciation? What would be a good English approximation? IPA is OK thnx 24.92.85.35 (talk) 20:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know IPA, but I can tell you that Rakhel (רחל) is pronounced as Rah-hell (but the h has a hiss to it like in Khanukkah). It would be nice if I could find an audio file but I cannot. :( Here we go, here is a song with the name in it. [2] Go to 00.26, please. I don't know about the second name. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Tishrei 5772 21:02, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

There is most certainly no hiss in Hanukah. Perhaps you meant fricativastion? μηδείς (talk) 21:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

That's how the sound created by ח was called in Brandeis Modern Hebrew, it's called a slight hissing sound there (the sound created in German in words that end with -ig). The fricative thing you're talking about sounds more like כ, which was referred to as a slight gargle. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Tishrei 5772 21:23, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding one of the ugliest words in the lexicon, but it's actually spelt fricativisation. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I figure most people wouldn't know what I meant if I used that term. xD Even my dad doesn't know that term! (And he graduated from Princeton with a 4.2 GPA and Suma Cum Laude!) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Tishrei 5772 01:56, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, The God of Small Things takes place in Kerala, where they speak Malayalam. There's no reason to suppose Rahel is pronounced the Hebrew way. Malayalam doesn't have any of the sounds that are indicated in Hebrew by ח and כ. It's probably just a straightforward /h/ as in ahead. Angr (talk) 21:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I thought it was a reference to Biblical Rakhel. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Tishrei 5772 21:40, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Rahel clearly seems to be റാഹേൽ Ṟāhēl, which would be pronounced [ˈraːheːl]. There's a fair amount of Google hits for the name എസ്തപ്പാന്‍ Estappān, pronounced [ˈest̪əpːaːn], so this looks like a probable source of Esthappen. --BishkekRocks (talk) 22:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Of course it is a reference to Biblical Rachel, just as Esthappen is a reference to Biblical Stephen, only that we are dealing with the Malayalam forms of these names here. --BishkekRocks (talk) 22:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah, you mean it's like rah-hell straight forward? I knew a Filipino girl by that name that had it pronounced that same way. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Tishrei 5772 01:56, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Well no, neither /ç/ (German -ig) nor /x/ of the Biblical Rachel (nor /h/ for that matter) is considered an hissing consonant in standard phonological analyses. μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I think they prefer putting it in terms most people will understand, that's why the professors put it that way. :p It also does sound quite a bit like a cat hiss. Very similar to my imitation of my cat's hiss (don't ask). Let's face it, that's kind of specialised knowledge. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Tishrei 5772 01:57, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your opinion of cats, but until they start running linguistics departments.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs)

...people will continue to use Occam's Razor as their guiding light in teaching. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Tishrei 5772 02:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)