Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 January 27

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

January 27

Superlatives

When did words like great and awesome become (generally) associated with only good things? Great just means big and awesome is simply awe-inspiring, where awe itself is neutral. I know there are other words along those lines, like fantastic, impressive, wonderful, etc. Aaronite (talk) 00:29, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The word "great" is still used in its older sense in some expressions, such as "great big thing" or "Russia is a great power." Judging from the long entry for "great" in the Oxford English Dictionary, the use of "great" to mean "very good" instead of "very big" started in the early 19th century and gradually replaced the older meaning by the end of the century. The last OED citation for the original meaning of "awesome" is from 1880, but certainly, the use of the word in that sense did not die out then. The Reform Jewish prayer book for Rosh Hashana still translates part of the Unetanneh Tokef prayer as "Let us proclaim the sacred power of this day; it is awesome and full of dread." The use of "awesome" to mean "great" dates from no later than 1979. "Fantastic" is one of my favorites. In vetoing a 1952 immigration bill he felt was too restrictive, Harry Truman said, "Today, we are protecting ourselves as we were in 1924, against being flooded by immigrants from Eastern Europe. This is fantastic." Now Harry was not saying the bill was great; on the contrary, he was saying its supporters were living in a fantasy world. The OED now calls this usage obsolete, with citations up to 1876, although we know that its usage obviously continued on for some time. Its use meaning "great" is attributed as early as 1938. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:10, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Not a direct answer, but a well-worn anecdote. One version goes : "when King James II saw the new St. Paul’s Cathedral, designed by Sir Christopher Wren, he described it as amusing, awful, and artificial. The King meant no offence, and presumably none was taken, because those words then denoted pleasing, awesome (i.e. awe-inspiring), and skilfully achieved, respectively." [1] There are other versions -- just google for those three adjectives. BrainyBabe (talk) 01:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

On the other side of the ledger, "terrible" once meant something different from what it means today. Ivan the Terrible wasn't so named because he was an extremely poor quality king or human being (although he was; he murdered at least one of his own sons, but that still wasn't why they called him "terrible"). Грозный means menacing, threatening, terror-inducing. The Bible also talks of the Lord's power being "terrible". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 02:29, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

To continue Jack's line of thought, "fear" is another word which has gained values it did not once have. We use fear today as a synonym for "terror", but once it merely meant respect and awe for ones superiors. To be "God-fearing" does not mean to live in terror of God, merely to hold him in the sort of respect and veneration one is supposed to show one's superior. --Jayron32 02:54, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

More in this vein, 'terrific' used to mean 'causing terror', making it a near-synonym to 'horrific'. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=great&searchmode=none

and http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=awesome&searchmode=none

and http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=nice&searchmode=none

and http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=silly&searchmode=none

—Wavelength (talk) 06:56, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Has "fabulous" had its modern meaning for long? HiLo48 (talk) 07:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm always intrigued when a TV quiz show contestant gives the wrong answer to their first and only question, and is then farewelled by the host with something like "All the best, you've been a fabulous/great/fantastic contestant". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 07:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

"Great" could work for Biggest Loser. HiLo48 (talk) 07:46, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The OED cites fabulous in the "double-plus good" sense from 1959:

1959 Cambr. Rev. 30 May 571/2 Miss Mitchell, looking, one must admit, fabulous, played down her frenzy.

1962 Radio Times 4 Jan. 23/2, I think it's [sc. Salford] a fabulous place.

1963 A. Ross Australia 63 vii. 129 Trueman puffed at a cigarette and said he felt fabulous.

--Antiquary (talk) 20:37, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Gungywamp

Anyone from southeastern Connecticut around? How is Gungywamp pronounced? Pais (talk) 12:23, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Not from there, but I am familiar with New England place names in general; I would pronounce it as either /GUN-jee-wump/ or /GUN-gee-wump/, with a primary stress on the first syllable, and a secondary stress on the last syllable. The only question would be whether to use a "hard g" or a "soft g" on the middle syllable. --Jayron32 13:36, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I bet the last syllable rhymes with "swamp" rather than "pump". The hard G vs. soft G question was the primary one in my mind. And if it's not a soft G, is the "ng" to be pronounced as in "finger" or as in "singer"? In IPA, my three top guesses are (1) /ˈɡʌndʒiˌwɒmp/, (2) /ˈɡʌŋɡiˌwɒmp/, and (3) /ˈɡʌŋiˌwɒmp/. Less likely, but still possible, is that the final syllable could rhyme with "lamp" rather than "swamp", i.e. /-ˌwæmp/. Pais (talk) 14:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

It is definately not æ. Depending on your particular accent, either the a in "swamp" or the u in "pump" work interchangably; its really more of a "secondary-stressed schwa" sound. And be careful in deciding how the common English pronounciations of native-American derived words work; two of the most often butchered words in this vein are quahog (usually pronounced /KO-hog/) and geoduck (usually pronounced /GOO-ee-duck/). Orthography can sometimes be misleading... --Jayron32 14:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I know; that's why I came here hoping to find someone with first-hand experience of the name. Pais (talk) 14:46, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

OP are you asking how the name is pronounced by locals today, or how it may have been pronounced by native Americans? As Jayron alludes, these are likely different things. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

How it's pronounced by locals today. The original Native American pronunciation is probably unrecoverable at this point. Pais (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The audio at this site indicates that it's pronounced /ˈɡʌndʒiˌwɒmp/. Marco polo (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Grazie, Marco. Pais (talk) 17:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Question - what variety of English pronounses "swamp" as "/swæmp/"?? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Is there a word for this?

The concept I have in mind is "intellectual satisfaction" or "the positive feeling of having curiosity satisfied". Or to put it another way, here's an analogy: hunger is to satiation as intellectual curiosity is to X. Does there exist a single word that would fit X? 69.111.190.235 (talk) 16:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Enlightenment? --173.49.80.125 (talk) 17:50, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Grokking is a single word that basically means "to wrap your head around" [2]. Also 'satiety' can connote a metaphorical, intellectual sense of satiation. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:06, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Discovery? 86.183.171.169 (talk) 02:17, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Fullfillment? --Zerozal (talk) 14:29, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that the term knowledge fits. Our article calls it the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Euphemism and dysphemism for "visiting a prostitute"

In a non-English book on language, an example is given to show how words with different connotations can be chosen to affect the perception of the same facts. The example is something like

My husband was [euphemism for visiting a prostitute], when he saw your husband [another way of saying visiting a prostitute, but with a clearly negative connotation].

I like that example, but can't come up with a good English translation. How would you translate it? --173.49.80.125 (talk) 17:18, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Something like "My husband was engaging the services of a professional, when he saw your husband fucking a whore"? Pais (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, but that would not make as good an example as the original. In the original, the two expressions have the same literal meaning, but one is literary and euphemistic, while the other has a negative connotation but is not vulgar. --173.49.80.125 (talk) 17:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, can you tell us what the original language is, what the expressions are in that language, and how they would be literally (word-for-word) translated into English? That might help. Pais (talk) 17:49, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The original language is Chinese. I don't know how to type in that language, but I don't think it's important to know the original expressions anyway, because the intended meaning is clear. Upon further reflection, I think it may not be correct to say that the two original expressions have the same literal meaning. The literary/euphemistic version is a stock expression that is understood to refer to basically the same act as the other, but it sounds better. I don't have a need for a translation, but I'm treating it as an exercise in picking the right words and an intellectual challenge. --173.49.80.125 (talk) 20:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

(Edit Conflict) There are in English probably scores of different expression combinations that could fit this criterion, partly because of the properties of the language and partly because humanity in general has invented a very large vocabulary of sexually related terms. One possibility would be:

"My husband was calling on his mistress when he saw your husband consorting with his doxy."

I'm sure the contributors here could come up with many, many more varying with historical period, geographical location and social class. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:50, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I love that word. "I moved around a lot when I was a kid/cause my daddy was the travelin' type". --Trovatore (talk) 10:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

This example or puzzle seems very close to two other verbal games. One is "Men sweat, women perspire, dancers glow." (Alternate version: "Horses sweat, men perspire, women glow.") The other is a phrasal template, e.g. "I enjoy my food; you are greedy; he is a pig." We must have an article on this. What is it called? BrainyBabe (talk) 22:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't know, but Bernard Woolley in Yes Minister said this:

• It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it: I have an independent mind; you are an eccentric; he is round the twist. [3]. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:06, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to that quote, I found a couple more listed here. ---Sluzzelin talk 02:23, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

foreign language translations of current articles in English

Can you please tell me how I can create and link translated articles in a foreign language to those which already exist in English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShaynaHepner (talk • contribs) 18:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

See Help:Interlanguage links for information on linking articles from different Wikipedias about the same topic together. See Wikipedia:Translation for information on creating translated articles between different Wikipedias. --Jayron32 18:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

US English

Is the word snob used in US English? Stanstaple (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Corvus cornix_talk 19:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

As in "Terse, pithy answers are often the sign of a snob" (I kid:) SemanticMantis (talk) 20:18, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I tried to come up with a more informative answer, but I just couldn't think of anything other than what I said.  :) Corvus cornix_talk 23:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

thanks both Stanstaple (talk) 20:32, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

You're answer was sufficient- I was looking for a straight answer. (Though if there were any interesting side points, i'd gladly hear them) Stanstaple (talk) 23:37, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are side points. The OED entry attests to the interesting semantic shift of "snob" from, in the 1830s,

"A person belonging to the ordinary or lower social class; one having no pretensions to rank or gentility", via

"A person who has little or no breeding or good taste; a vulgar or ostentatious person" and

"A person who admires and seeks to imitate, or associate with, those of higher social status or greater wealth; one who wishes to be regarded as a person of social importance" to more or less where we are today,

"A person who despises those whom he or she considers to be inferior in rank, attainment, or taste. Freq. in extended sense, with defining word limiting its reference to a particular sphere."

(Also, only because this is the Language Desk, I feel impelled to point out that your use of "you're" is not quite what the manual of style advises. Your = belonging to you. You're = you are.) BrainyBabe (talk) 00:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Your right, of course)). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanstaple (talk • contribs) 17:57, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

For an American example, Nob Hill, San Francisco, used to be, and might still be, derisively called "Snob Hill". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:26, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

In British English "Nob hill" would be more funny/derisive by it self.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:23, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

So, wait, would right around Bush and Jones-ish be able to be called the "Tendersnob"? 173.11.0.145 (talk) 22:20, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Disgust

Dears, I'm doing a research project about emotional concept "disgust" and I need a list of phrasal verbs and idioms which nominate, describe and express this emotion Thanks a lot Uliana stg (talk) 19:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting topic."Gag me with a spoon!" [4] is a colorful, idiomatic phrase of disgust. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Less colourful, but commonly used: "It turns my stomach". For the wish to erase the most disgusting thing you've ever seen from your memory: "I've got to go poke out my mind's eye", "Excuse me while I soak my brain in acid. Probably me ears too." See Brain Bleach. (sorry for spamming you with TV Tropes again).---Sluzzelin talk 20:29, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

That could gag a maggot. Marco polo (talk) 22:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

"I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole." or "I wouldn't touch it with yours." Bielle (talk) 23:22, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

*puke* Hans Adler 23:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

For phrasal verbs: "gross out", as in "That really grosses me out." rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

"Fear and Loathing in <name your place>". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Jesse Helms? 173.11.0.145 (talk) 22:21, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

How about a phrase that evokes this sense: "My butt threw up." 173.11.0.145 (talk) 22:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

See http://thesaurus.com/browse/disgust

and http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/?s=disgust

and http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=disgust.

—Wavelength (talk) 03:22, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Vulgar and specifically related to disgust with a female: "I wouldn't fuck her with your dick". --Zerozal (talk) 14:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Word for a word that English has borrowed from another language

What's the word for this? I believe an example is café, another one may be taco. Bluefist ^talk 23:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Usually, loanword. --ColinFine (talk) 23:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Bluefist ^talk 23:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Word would work for the most part, as long as you're talking about English! ;) Lexicografía (talk) 00:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The correct word in this context (specifically into English) is "anglicise".