Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 January 15

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January 15

Latin to English translation at "Robert Hues"

I worked on the article "Robert Hues" some time back, and with the help of some volunteers translated the Latin text of a monumental brass to Hues into English. The translation appears in the "Later life" section of the article. Since there are some Latin speakers here, I was wondering if one or more of you could have a look at the translation and make sure that it is accurate. Thanks. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 10:16, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

It looks pretty good. There are some spelling mistakes in the Latin (should be "omnigenam", "explorabundus", "vocatus"). "Tum" can mean "both" (or "and") the way it is used here, and "scholastica" probably means "rhetoric". "Explorabundus velis ambivit orbem" literally means "he went around the world as an explorer by sail". I'm not sure what the part about Baron Gray refers to; "in arce Londinensi" could mean "in the Tower of London", but it could be some kind of government department, maybe the treasury but maybe also the courts (could it also be "in arca"?). I don't know if Baron Gray refers to a real person, or Gray's Inn; I want to say it means "he was called to the bar as counsel at Gray's Inn" or something, but I don't know enough about these people or this period. The only major difference in my attempt is after he joined Earl Henry...so maybe I'm confused. Here is what I have:

"Here lies [the body of] a most literate man, of the highest moral and religious integrity, Robert Hues, on account of his erudition in all subjects, both theology and history, and rhetoric, philology, and philosophy, but especially mathematics (of which a notable volume remains in print). He was most closely associated first with Thomas Cavendish, in whose company he explored the world by sail: then with Lord Baron Gray, whom he joined as a councillor in the London court. When Gray died, he was summoned to study in the same place with Henry, Earl of Northumberland, to teach his son, and when he had worked for some years in this church, and had decided that the place next to the school was suitable for his health in old age, he breathed his last at the house of John Smith, his body exhausted, but with a lively spirit, on 24 May, in the year of our salvation 1632, at the age of 79."

Adam Bishop (talk) 15:28, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, haha, I should probably read the whole article first. I'm not as clever as I think...Baron Grey was indeed imprisoned in the Tower of London and Hues was there to help him out. So you were right, it is something like "to whom he came as a consoler in the Tower of London". Adam Bishop (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Two of the spelling errors appear in the source (p. xxxvii) so I think I should not correct them (perhaps they appear in the original monumental brass), but vocatus was a typo on my part so I have changed that.

There are also two Latin passages that appear in the footnotes; perhaps you could have a look at them too?

• "Oxonii in parochiâ Sancti Aldati, inque Domicilio speciatim lapides, e regione insignis Afri cærulei, fatis concessit, et in ecclesiâ Ædis Christi Cathedrali humatus fuit an: dom: CIƆDXXXII [sic: CIƆDCXXXII]" – "In Oxford in the parish of St. Aldate, that is, in the dwelling of stone, from the region of the blue African sign (?), he yielded to the Fates, and was buried in the church of Christ Church Cathedral in the year of our Lord 1532 [sic: 1632]".
• "In laminâ œneâ, eidem pariati impactâ talem cernis inscriptionem" – "On the copper plate, driven to the same wall, one sees such an inscription".

— Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 18:33, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I saw a few different versions on Google Books too, I guess the original has a lot of abbreviations. The first is "He yielded to the fates at Oxford, in the parish of St Aldate, and especially in the stones of his own house [then something about Africa???], and was buried, etc". I don't know what "from the region of famous African blue" means or how that fits (maybe Robert is "insignis", since that could be nominative). The second one looks okay (although for wall it should be "parieti"). Adam Bishop (talk) 20:58, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

We seem to be having problems with a mysterious blue African, but my dictionary gives "dark, gloomy, dun, sable, black" as being among the many possible translations of cæruleus. I've forgotten most of my Latin so I can only wonder if "at the sign of the Blackamoor" might figure in this footnote. --Antiquary (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The article says that the house where he died was "opposite the Blue Boar", which suggests that apri cærulei is perhaps the correct reading. Deor (talk) 00:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, right, so probably "in the neighbourhood of the Blue Boar". What about "speciatim"? "Especially" sounds weird there...I know it says he didn't just die anywhere in Oxford, it was his own house. Maybe "specifically"? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:21, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Yup, "specifically" or "in particular" is how I take it. Deor (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and "domicilio ... lapides" must refer to the "Stone House" mentioned in the article. Could it be a misreading for "domicilio ... lapideo", "house of stone"? Iblardi (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The 1889 source does not seem very reliable on matters of spelling in general, considering that Latin "parieti" is rendered as "pariati" (as mentioned by Adam Bishop) and Dutch "Tractaet of te handelingen" is misspelled as "Tractaut of te handebingen"... Iblardi (talk) 01:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Just a suggestion. Maybe a better nuance instead of "Here lies [the body of] a most literate man" -- "a highly lettered man" or "a man of letters"? We tend to think of literacy now as the ability to read and write, but in previous times it often referred to a well-read person, knowledgeable in the literary and historical canon of their cuture. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll get round to updating the article soon, hopefully. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 11:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I've updated the translations. Do check them if you are free. Thanks again. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 14:39, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Live and In Concert

What does the phrase, "Live and In Concert", mean when it is used on an ad for a music group?

For "Live", one guess is that it might mean "actually on stage in front of you" as opposed to "playing a concert in another city that is being carried by satelite" or "being shown from a DVD".

For "In Concert", one guess is "playing music as featured artists" as opposed to "answering questions (a.k.a. press conference)" or "being a backup band for someone else". --Kevinkor2 (talk) 12:52, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

As I understand it, it means that the music is being played in front of an audience, rather than being mixed and edited in a recording studio. Alansplodge (talk) 13:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not clear from the question what the advert is for, but I am guessing it's for a concert, not a live album. This is just standard ad-man's hyperbole to advertise a live concert. There are no deeper shades of meaning than that. --Viennese Waltz 14:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, VW. Yes, I was asking about a concert poster, not a live album. (: I imagine that a "live and in concert" album was recorded at a "live and in concert" concert. :) --Kevinkor2 (talk) 14:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

It strikes me as a redundancy for emphasis... like saying that a TV show was "recorded live before a studio audience". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Objective of resume.

I want to write an objective of my resume which looks like: "Officer of an established company". I am applying a job in this company. Is that objective is relevant with the position? I just want to know whether it's standard form.--180.234.67.219 (talk) 20:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Note: The OP geolocates to Bangladesh. Fluency in Indian English is required when answering. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think your comment is funny. 82.124.226.199 (talk) 10:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

It was not meant to be funny. It simply was intended to be an information to respondents who may have given nonconstructive answers assuming the OP was looking for "correct" British or US English usage. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:06, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And Coockatoo was absolutely right, because unless you are familiar with "standard form" in Indian English job applications, you cannot answer the question. To me, as a speaker of British English, the question itself is difficult to understand. By "an objective of my resume", what does the OP mean ? Does s/he wants to say a)where they see themself in a few years' time? b)what position they are applying for? c)what position they currently hold? I honestly have no idea. And "Officer of an established company" wouldn't be a phrase I'd choose for any of those options in my own variety of English. But this may be of no use to the OP, if British English isn't appropriate for the task. Karenjc 13:21, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

In the U.S., at least, inclusion of "objective" is no longer recommended on résumés. Everyone's objective is to obtain a job. Remember, you need to tell the interviewer what you can do for him or her. Your "objective" is irrelevant. Emphasize skills, knowledge, and experience. By the way, I would not trust that site. There should be no apostrophe in "Career's". Poorly designed and written. Not to be trusted. (or is that "state of the art" for Bangladesh these days?) --Nricardo (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

That was unnecessary, Nricardo. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Cookatoo's initial comment - someone with expertise in Bangaladeshi business etiquette needs to comment here. Such etiquette can differ widely between countries. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 21:24, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course I agree that it would be helpful to be familiar with business practices in Bangladesh. However, it might help the OP to have an answer from someone who is familiar with business practices generally.

And what variety of English is used is almost irrelevant, in the sense that anything that was linguistically acceptable in most countries where English is spoken natively would almost certainly be acceptable in Bangladesh in a business context. 82.120.62.252 (talk) 09:54, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, "officer of a company" would seem strange in other varieties of English except in a narrow legal context, where the officer of a company usually means a statutorily defined class of high-level employees of the company. However, without being familiar with Bangaladeshi English, I think it would be difficult to judge whether the OP's intended audience would find this strange.

Similarly, whether or not an "objectives" section is included in a CV is something that differs between places and seems often to be a generational thing. For example, I know that in Australia it is optional, and my preference is not to include it, but older sources or templates advise applicants to do so. The situation seems to be a little different in the US. It may well be quite different in Bangaladesh. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

And in 25 years of applying for jobs and (from time to time) appraising CVs and selecting and interviewing job candidates in the UK, I have never seen an "objectives" section on a CV and it would never have occurred to me that anyone might include one. I do love Wikipedia. Karenjc 15:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Probably not the best source, but it shows there is such a thing: [1]. 82.120.62.252 (talk) 21:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

"On the one side... on the other..." in Italian

Hello. How do you say "one the one side... on the other..." in Italian? Grazie mille! Leptictidium (mt) 20:11, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps da una parte ... dall'altra? I think that works. But it's a long time since I lived in Italy, so I'm not sure how much to trust myself on this sort of thing. --Trovatore (talk) 20:20, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's: da una parte ... dall'altra. It can also be: da una parte ... d'altro canto--151.51.162.12 (talk) 01:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)