Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 October 10

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October 10

Expression, Phrase or Term?

There are concepts like Big Bang or Golden goal whose names comprise several words. How would you call such a group of words which is the name of one concept? Expression? Phrase? Term? Something else? What’s the best name for such a group of words? -- Irene1949 (talk) 00:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Neologism? schyler (talk) 01:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

"Neologism" means a newly-created word, and the concept of a multi-word construction comprising a single name is nothing new: e.g. "Papal States", "Holy Roman Empire", "Luminiferous aether", "Euclidean geometry", etc. At any rate, the phrase "Big Bang" in regards to universe origins has been around since 1949, and is the most commonly used and preferred term for a widely discussed concept - it would hardly classify as a neologism. -- 174.24.199.14 (talk) 05:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The OP's examples are just alliterative two-word terms comprising an adjective and a noun. Dbfirs 06:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

So "term" is the best word? -- Irene1949 (talk) 09:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

'Term' or 'expression', take your pick. Not 'phrase', though, because they are inherently part of a larger construct, a sentence, whereas your examples exist in isolation. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

"Term" is the right word. An "expression" is an idiom. --98.114.98.2 (talk) 14:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

"Expression" can also apply to these sorts of things. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Another word to consider is collocation. --Anonymous, 21:55 UTC, 2010-10-10.

I have read the beginning of the article collocation. Thank you, but I don't think that that is the word I was looking for. -- Irene1949 (talk) 00:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you to all of you for your answers. -- Irene1949 (talk) 17:42, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Need German translation

La guimauve est-elle un être vivant, et a-t-elle les propriétés que lui accordent Dioscoride et Galien?
Google translate gives: "Marshmallow, is it a living being and does it give him the properties that Dioscorides and Galen?"
The "Marshmallow" part doesn't make sense. Explain further the comparison to that of Dioscorides and Galen. It can be found on page 5, here. Just type in " 5 " and hit return. It is item number 3. Thanks for help.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

First off, it's French, and the translation is "The [guimauve], is it a living being, and does it have the properties which Dioscorides and Galen ascribe to it?" The word Guimauve seems to refer to the original plant, not the puffy white sugary thing... AnonMoos (talk) 14:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

See Althaea officinalis. The plant has been used for medicinal purposes since ancient times. The modern confection no longer has anything to do with the plant.--Cam (talk) 15:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes much more sense.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 15:54, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

How did you manage to Google-translate it without knowing what language it's in? Rimush (talk) 18:17, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Google Translate has a nifty feature called "recognise this language". JIP | Talk 13:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Chinese

What is the most complex chinese character in (relative) common use? I asked a native speaker and he guessed 藏 (so the character shouldn't be much more obscure than that) but told me to look it up somewhere. Thanks. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 15:20, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

That all depends how you define "common use".

It also depends on how you define "complex". Do you mean number of strokes, or number of radicals? And, of course, the counts for either will be different depending on whether you are talking about simplified characters or traditional character. In any case, 藏, at 20 strokes, is not all that complex, I'm sure there are more complex ones that can still be considered "common" (i.e., not rare ones like the one for biang). rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I happen to have a copy of this Chinese character corpus with stroke counts added. Here is a list of all the characters with as many or more strokes than 藏 and a log frequency of greater than 0 (indicating that they are probably not super-weird; anything with a log frequency of above 1 might be considered "common" depending on your definition. For instance, the characters 警、露、避、霸、籍 are all very common, although most of them are tied with 藏 on stroke count (霸 has one more); 蘑 (common in the word 蘑菇, mushroom), has 22 strokes and is far more common than what its log frequency of 0.712 would suggest, probably due to sampling error (the materials for this corpus are mostly news stories and fiction); another common food one is 藕 with 21 strokes. Some of the results below are traditional characters.

large table
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
rank character frequency pinyin meaning strokes PPM frequency Log frequency 3944 蘸 609 zhan4 to dip in (ink, sauce, etc.) 25 3.14722147009888 0.497927305308378 4082 囔 533 nang1 muttering, indistinct speech 25 2.75446476775485 0.440037221702075 2410 罐 4169 guan4 can/jar/pot 24 21.5447722641088 1.3333419078018 3029 矗 1843 chu4 lofty/upright 24 9.52435003184275 0.978835347894576 3843 鑫 670 xin1 (used in names) 24 3.46246040224343 0.539384815376329 4387 衢 373 qu2 thoroughfare 24 1.92760855229373 0.28501884448419 4607 蠹 286 du4 bookworm/Lepisma saccharina 24 1.47800548513675 0.169676045804546 4906 變 202 bian4 23 1.04390597201966 0.0186613821221264 2041 囊 6709 nang2 sack 22 34.671114684554 1.53996780455137 2077 灌 6403 guan4 irrigate/pour 22 33.0897521724846 1.51969351449967 2652 藻 3035 zao3 (aquatic grasses)/elegant 22 15.6844288370281 1.19546870808678 2932 懿 2086 yi4 restrain/virtuous 22 10.7801379090743 1.03262431676601 3528 蘑 998 mo2 mushroom 22 5.15751564393872 0.712440553962874 4312 獾 408 huan1 badger 22 2.10848334942585 0.323970175765383 4319 霾 407 mai2 dust-storm 22 2.10331549807922 0.322904421900723 4324 饕 403 tao1 gluttonous 22 2.08264409269269 0.318615058816612 4330 夔 400 kui2 one-legged monster/respectful 22 2.06714053865279 0.315370004003465 4901 邋 202 la1 22 1.04390597201966 0.0186613821221264 1838 霸 8639 ba4 feudal chief/rule by force/tyrant/lord/master/hegemon/usurp 21 44.6450677835537 1.64977348668025 2195 蠢 5542 chun3 blunt/stupid/to wiggle (of worms)/sluggish 21 28.6402321630345 1.45697653412172 2200 藤 5514 teng2 rattan/cane 21 28.4955323253288 1.45477677444526 2622 藩 3138 fan1 21 16.2167175257312 1.20996295192642 2731 嚼 2739 jiao2/jue2 to chew, to chew 21 14.154744838425 1.15090204492946 2887 癫 2210 dian1 convulsions/crazy 21 11.4209514760567 1.05770228636061 3201 巍 1485 wei1 high/lofty/towering/majestic 21 7.6742592497485 0.885036466328734 3342 隧 1252 sui4 subterranean/underground passage 21 6.47014988598325 0.810914341549913 3404 攘 1138 rang3 throw into confusion 21 5.8810148324672 0.769452274734555 3438 霹 1095 pi1 clap of thunder 21 5.65879722456202 0.75272413185164 3734 藥 767 yao4 21 3.96374198286673 0.598105376624484 3821 躏 688 lin4 21 3.55548172648281 0.550898450911014 3920 藕 619 ou3 root of lotus 21 3.1988999835652 0.505000661695621 4011 瓒 573 zan4 libation cup 21 2.96117882162013 0.471464634642893 4131 醺 503 xun1 helplessly intoxicated 21 2.59942922735589 0.41487799773143 4245 蠡 441 li2/li3 calabash, wood-boring insect 21 2.27902244386471 0.357748602143341 4556 藜 305 li2 Chenopodium album 21 1.57619466072276 0.197609852022288 4856 礴 211 bo2 fill/extend 21 1.09041663413935 0.0375924679731952 687 警 55189 jing3 to alert/to warn 20 285.208547969273 2.45516253759026 841 露 40954 lu4/lou4 to show/to reveal/to expos/dew 20 211.644184049966 2.3256063386276 907 藏 36704 cang2/zang4 to hide away/to conceal/to harbor/store/accumulate, storehouse/depository/Buddhist or Taoist scripture/Zang/Tibet 20 189.68081582678 2.27802340889668 991 避 31731 bi4 avoid/shun/flee/escape/leave/to keep away/to leave/to hide 20 163.98109107998 2.21479377174845 1579 籍 12205 ji2 (surname)/record/register/native place 20 63.0736256856434 1.79984779642871 1804 耀 9060 yao4 brilliant/glorious 20 46.8207332004858 1.67043821035232 1854 邀 8484 yao1 invite to come 20 43.8440508248258 1.64191067252003 2256 嚷 5138 rang3 blurt out/to shout 20 26.5524202189951 1.42410411260583 2412 壤 4165 rang3 soil/earth 20 21.5241008587222 1.33292501841831 2441 譬 3985 pi4 give an example 20 20.5938876163285 1.31373833840763 2451 躁 3917 zao4 hot-tempered/impatient 20 20.2424737247575 1.30626358422337 2586 馨 3281 xin1 fragrant 20 16.9557202682995 1.22931624306155 2615 藉 3169 ji2/jie4 in disorder, by means of 20 16.3769209174768 1.2142322518658 2942 孽 2063 nie4 consequence of sin 20 10.6612773281018 1.02780924064865 3322 躇 1283 chu2 hesitate 20 6.63035327772884 0.821536669050431 3363 薯 1204 shu3 potato/yam 20 6.22209302134491 0.793936499597308 3512 蠕 1028 ru2 to squirm/to wiggle/to wriggle 20 5.31255118433768 0.72530312733476 3536 纂 990 zuan3 compile 20 5.11617283316567 0.708945207273053 3548 攒 977 cuan2/zan3 bring together, collect/hoard 20 5.04899076565945 0.703204576394276 3666 瀚 842 han4 ocean/vastness 20 4.35133083386413 0.638622104175152 3744 曦 761 xi1 light of day 20 3.93273487478694 0.594694669446075 3755 藐 750 miao3 despise/small 20 3.87588850997399 0.588371276067203 3823 懵 685 meng3 stupid 20 3.53997817244291 0.549000584167928 3890 瀛 636 ying2 ocean 20 3.28675345645794 0.516767128323916 3949 遽 604 ju4 hurry/fast/suddenly 20 3.12138221336572 0.494346951296634 3950 邃 604 sui4 deep/distant/mysterious 20 3.12138221336572 0.494346951296634 4055 薰 548 xun1 Coumarouna odorata 20 2.83198253795433 0.452090571159872 4187 藓 469 xian3 mosses on damp walls 20 2.4237222815704 0.384482855390586 4208 糯 455 nuo4 glutinous rice 20 2.35137236271755 0.371321409332615 4368 孀 382 shuang1 widow 20 1.97411921441342 0.295373375587211 4605 邂 286 xie4 meet unexpectedly 20 1.47800548513675 0.169676045804546 4723 霰 245 xian4 sleet 20 1.26612357992484 0.102476097040035 4877 醴 207 li3 sweet wine 20 1.06974522875282 0.0292803581324204

rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I went through an older copy of the "Unihan" database I happen to have downloaded, and found the character with "kFrequency 1" and the highest remaining value of the "kTotalstrokes" field, and it turned out to be U9084 or 還 (which may or may not mean anything)... AnonMoos (talk) 15:50, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

That is the traditional equivalent of 还; it only has 17 strokes, though. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

But it's presumably quite common (or that's what the database entry is indicating). AnonMoos (talk) 16:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The characters with "kFrequency 2" and the highest remaining value of the "kTotalstrokes" field are U7063 灣 and U89C0 觀... AnonMoos (talk) 15:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

And those are 湾 and 观, respectively, in simplified. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

See Chinese character#Rare and complex characters. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

See also "The Chinese character biáng". --Theurgist (talk) 19:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The OP asked for non-rare characters, though. rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I must have overlooked that, sorry. --Theurgist (talk) 22:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Klingon alphabet

Is the Klingon alphabet uniquely decodable? --84.61.131.141 (talk) 18:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, there seem to be two Klingon alphabets, neither one of which has really been used in the actual TV shows or movies to write Klingon words... AnonMoos (talk) 19:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

That's an interesting contrast of "actual" and "actually", especially in the context of fictional language. --Anonymous, 21:58 UTC, 2010-10-10.

See Klingon writing systems. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 23:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Five points to the first person who can write "My hovercraft is full of eels" in any of the Klingon alphabets. And for bonus absurdity, I just noticed that my computer's spell-checker actually recognizes 'Klingon' as a valid word in English. I'm still trying to put my finger on the horribly wrongness of that. --Ludwigs2 02:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't struggle too much, just accept it. If Hobbit can be a word, why not Klingon? Btw, the expression "horribly wrongness" is, well, horribly wrong.  :) -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry about the spellchecker - they are notoriously [insert your adjective of choice here], especially with proper nouns - my Firefox spellchecker doesn't even recognize the word 'Firefox' (or 'spellchecker' - and NeoOffice on my Mac doesn't recognize 'spellchecker' either, urging me to replace it with 'spellchecker' - the same word). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

To Ludwigs2: Omniglot claims it's "lupDujHomwIj luteb gharghmey". – b_jonas 12:18, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is uniquely decodable: it's a prefix code if you read it in reverse. – b_jonas 12:18, 17 October 2010 (UTC)