Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 9

Language desk
< May 8	<< Apr | May | Jun >>	May 10 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 9

What does Quebecois pronunciation mean??

I was looking at the item on wiki about poutine and it said something like "Quebecois pronunciation". What is that supposed to mean? I'm not trying to be a smart ass but this is commonly known stuff. Have you really researched the province of Quebec and its population and history before asserting this attribute? I don't think so.

Had you done so, you would have known that québecois is not a nationality or a language, not even as a canadianism. The proper word or words you were looking for are either french-canadian or at the most extreme, joual. (pron. joo-al)

Québec, as you know, is not 100% francophone. The vietnamese population who were born the 2nd generation in Québec are also from the province of Québec but are no more francophone than you are. But they are canadians who reside in the province of Quebec in a country called Canada. Therefore, you can't use something like "quebecois" to describe the roots of a word's origin or how it's pronounced. It's insulting to the other francophones (french-canadians) living outside Quebec and the non-francophones living in Quebec. Unless you've actually lived in a french-canadian community in Canada, it may be a hard concept to grasp but please bring some accuracy to your articles and make this simple edit. 74.104.23.97 02:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC) Benoit Aubry

As you are probably aware, anybody can edit articles at Wikipedia, thus the "you" you have addressed in this comment could be anybody. This also means that if you feel that something is incorrect in an article, you are free to change it. In addition, you comment might better have been placed in the talk page for the specific article you are addressing, Poutine. --LarryMac 02:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It says how to pronounce the word in Quebec French, which they are saying is a variety of French. People pronounce words different ways; what is so wrong about saying that people who speak French in Quebec pronounce it that way? I'm having a hard time seeing how it is possible to get offended over something like that. Recury 16:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that the article was edited after the gripe was posted.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Ojibwe language for Manitoulin Island?

I'm interested in learning the language spoken by First Nations people on Manitoulin Island. See: http://www.wikwemikongheritage.org/language/resources.html Is that Anishinaabemowin? Is there such a thing as an Odawa-Ojibway language and is it different from Anishinaabemowin? Is there a standardized orthography for the language spoken in Wikwemikong or competing systems? Where can I see a full phonology explaining the sounds of that specific dialect or language? The Anishinaabe language dialects page does not mention Manitoulin Island, so I'm not sure which "dialect" is used. The Ottawa (First Nation) page says that Wiky is an Odawa community. Does that mean I'm looking for the Ottawa dialect of Anishinaabemowin? Or does it mean there's more than one dialect or language spoken in Wiky?--Sonjaaa 04:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

♦Answer to your first question: Yes. The indigenous languages spoken on Manitoulin Island are various forms of the Anishinaabe language. The three dialects or languages (depending on personal and academic biases) spoken are mixture of Eastern and Central Ojibwe (ojg and ojc), Odawa (otw) and Potawatomi (pot).

♦Answer to your second question: Yes, there is such a thing as a Odawa-Ojibway language. And no, it is not different from Anishinaabemowin, but rather part of Anishinaabemowin. Now, Anishinaabemowin will have subtle differences from community to community, and sometimes from speaker to speaker. On Wikwemikong, due to the past relocation projects from other areas to Manitoulin Island, this variation is quite pronounced. Often a person from Wiky will jokingly claim the ability to speak 5 different languages (dialects): English, Ojibwemowin, Daawaamwin, Bodéwadmimwen and "Ojiwaadmimwen" (a joke name to describe the form of Anishinaabemowin resulting from the mixture of Ojibwemowin, Daawaamwin/Jibwemwin, Bodéwadmimwen uniquely found on Manitoulin Island). The so called Odawa-Ojibway language is the form of the Anishinaabemowin typically called Nishnaabemwin. Nishnaabemwin is divided into Daawaamwin (Odaawaamowin or the Odaawaa language/dialect) and Jibwemwin (Ojibwemowin or the Central/Eastern Ojibwe dialect of the Ojibwe language).

♦Answer to your third question: No. There is not a standardized orthography for the language spoken in Wikwemikong; however, the Rhodes Double Vowel system is what is used among the academic circles.

♦Answer to your fourth question: Anishinaabe language dialects is the article you want to look at. It does not say "Manitoulin Island" specifically, but it is grouped (for now) with Ontario. Using the ISO 639-3 designation, again, the four dialects of Anishinaabe languages found on the island are ojg, ojc, otw and pot.

♦Answer to your fifth question: No, despite what the article currently says, Wikwemikong is not an Odawa-only community. Most of the people in Wiky are Odawa and Potawatomi, but with high degree of interactions with neighbouring Ojibwa communities, that distinctness Canadians and American love so much but have always been fuzzy among the Anishinaabeg are even more blurred with the communities found on Manitoulin Island.

♦Answer to your sixth question: Yes, you are looking for the Ottawa dialect of Anishinaabemowin, if you are looking at a predominantly Odawa, but as said before, other than the otw, there are ojc, ojg and pot spoken there as well. This was part of the reason why when Richard Rhodes compiled the Eastern Ojibwa-Chippewa-Ottawa Dictionary (Hardbound - ISBN-10: 0899251145/ISBN-13: 978-0899251141; Paperback - ISBN-10: 3110137496/ISBN-13: 978-3110137491), he grouped them together in this work. He also breaks down collection of communities with these codes in that dictionary:

1. (unmarked) - common to both Jibwemwin and Daawaamwin
   1. Oj - common to Jibwemwin
      1. CL - found in Curve Lake, ON
      2. R - found in Rama, ON
   2. Od - common to Dawaamwin
      1. BC - found in Bay City, MI
      2. CC - used by a speaker from Cape Croaker, ON
      3. CV - used by a speaker from Cross Village, MI
      4. M - found on Manitoulin Island
      5. S - used by a speaker from Sarnia, ON
      6. W - found on Walpole Island
   3. Pot - words that came from Potawatomi

The other "standard" work for the Nishnaabemwin, other than Rhodes' "EOCOD", is Rand Valentine's Nishnaabemwin Reference Grammar (Hardbound - ISBN-10: 0802048706/ISBN-13: 978-0802048707; Paperback - ISBN-10: 0802083897/ISBN-13: 978-0802083890). CJLippert 14:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

According to our artice Ottawa (First Nation), the Ottawa (Odawa) language is considered a divergent dialect of the Ojibwe language, the latter being also considered a group of languages and then called, also including Algonquin, Anishinaabemowin. So, apparently, Odawa is a dialect of (a language belonging to) Ojibwe (also called Ojibway or Ojibwa). The Ethnologue report on Ottawa calls its use "Vigorous on Manitoulin Island".[1] This is the only language for which the reports mention Manitoulin Island, so it must be the major indiginous language there (and thus apparently including Wiky), even if, as the report states, all speakers are bilingual or trilingual: "All speakers also use English, some use other Ojibwa varieties."

I can't help you with the other questions; perhaps some other user can, but this is very specialized. But I bet that among the linguistics departments of the universities in Ontario there are linguists with a special interest in Anishinaabemowin languages and dialects, who can refer you to proposals or standards of orthography and phonological studies, if such exist (and I bet they do). I hope this answer is helpful.  --Lambiam^Talk 14:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Standard for writing out numbers

I've always been told, you write out any number under 10 and use the numbers for 10 and above (i.e. "He has seven cars." vs "He has 12 cars." Is this proper form for Wikipedia articles? LaraLove^Talk/_Contribs 04:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Usually, except "ten" goes the other way. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Numbers in words. --Anonymous, May 9, 2007, 06:01, corrected 10:12 (UTC).

Huh. I had always heard to write out any number expressible in a single word (one through twenty, as well as thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, hundred, thousand, million, etc.). —Angr 14:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a style question. Having worked for several publishers, I can report that the style for writing out numbers varies depending on the publisher, and sometimes depending on the publication. What does not vary is that a given style should be applied consistently throughout a publication, document, or series of documents. If Wikipedia's style is to write out numbers below 10 but to use numerals from 10 up, then you should adhere to that for Wikipedia. I have also seen 13 and 21 used as cut-off points below which numbers are written out. Incidentally, most style guides called for writing out any number that begins a sentence (though that usage should be avoided for large numbers.) Marco polo 15:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Still another style that some of us techies prefer is to use digits for any number that's viewed as a simple count or measurement, no matter how small. Thus "He has 3 cars", just a count, but "He has three cars: a Ford, a Lincoln, and a Roosevelt", viewing them as three different things. But that's certainly not Wikipedia style. --Anonymous, May 10, 2007, 05:54 (UTC).

Or in mathematics, where you might "take two 3-manifolds; if one is a knot complement, then there exists exactly one harmonic 1-form on it." "Adding 2 to a number preserves its parity; adding two even or two odd numbers results in an even number." etc. Tesseran 18:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Numbers_in_words Unimaginative Username 02:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

german translation

hello

right now i'm in primary school and my german lote teacher has given the yr 7s a german weather report speech as an assignment (or project) and i have to do a weather report for 6 different cities around the world. but i'm having trouble translating what i want to say , from english to german. could you please help me find what these words/sentences are in german (it's a pretty long list): _______________________________________________________________________

degrees celcius (as in 24 degrees).

In paris, it is the middle of winter and it is very cold. It is snowing and it’s very dry. Not ideal if you are trying to avoid bad hair days.

In cairo it is scorching hot and also very dry. The sun is up every day, so wear a hat and sunscreen if you are planning to visit.

Over on the other side of the world.

beijing, los angeles, brisbane, amsterdam. _______________________________________________________________________

i really appreciate you helping me. i'm not really good at german,but i want to get a good mark on my report card.

thankyouHamburgla 08:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, we won't do your homework for you, but here are some links that may be helpful:

• de:Wettervorhersage, the article on Weather forecasting at the German Wikipedia
• Wetterzentrale, a German weather forecast site, where you can read Wettervorhersagen in German.

This may help you to find the right words and expressions to use in your weather report. And, by studying this, you will actually improve your German-language skills, which is more important than good marks on your report card.  --Lambiam^Talk 08:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

thankyou for the help lambiam!

What's the "shiz-niggle?"

I've searched for a definitition and derivation of the term "shiz-niggle" without success.

I have heard and read it used in describing a noun, e.g., he's the shiz-niggle.

I'm new at posting here and I hope this is an appropriate query.

BeeSssJay 11:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Complete guess here, I would say it's a continuation of shit --> shiz --> shizzle --> shiz-niggle, so therefor he's "the shit". Someone might have a better answer though. 213.48.15.234 12:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

For those not familiar with this colloquial usage, calling something or someone the shit conveys a very favourable view on it, like saying it's the bee's knees. See our Shit article, which is quite the shit. Indeed, the uses of shizniggle on the Internet appear to have the same meaning.[2][3] (Most uses I could find spell it without hyphen.) In [http://blog.myspace.com/blog/rss.cfm?friendID=28345867] – I can't link this live because blog.myspace.com is on the Spam blacklist – it is used in combination with the shit, and in a grammatically freer way: I finally went out and bought my new car and holy friggin shizniggle, I love this car. Infiniti G35's are the shit.  --Lambiam^Talk 13:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You, Lambiam, are the shizizznizziggle-nizzigglizziggle-iggleniz. What? No article? 213.48.15.234 13:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

An interesting read on the "iz" infix and the "izzle" suffix is here, which I found in a reference on the Snoop Dogg page, the performer who popularized this particular form of slang. --LarryMac 13:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

In Victoria, Australia "the shizz" (or shiz - I'm not sure how it's spelt) means the tops, or the best. It may or may not be related. Storeye 06:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It's precisely related, as it's an abbreviation of shizniggle, and means exactly the same as above! Natgoo 10:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I reckon it could also be related to relatively early "shiznit" or could be derived from something like "it's the shit, nigger". Chances are, though, that it's just made up. Aaadddaaammm 03:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

See also -izzle. jnestorius^(talk) 18:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Japanese questions

Hello. I've recently started learning Japanese (only started a couple weeks ago), but there are a few small things I've come across that I'm curious about. I've got hiragana, katakana and some basic Kanji down, and am learning some vocab in tandem, just to give you an idea of where I'm at. So far I've been unable to find any answers through conventional means, so if anyone could answer I'd be grateful.

~ In written Japanese are there no clearly seperate "words"? Just an observation, but when presented with a block of text I'm often at a loss as to where a new word begins and ends, as there dont seem to be any discernable spaces. Is this overcome by Japanese by just recognising each word as its read, or is there something I'm missing (looking at particles or other signs)?

~ Learning Kanji. I suppose this is the crux of why Japanese is so hard to learn, but it seems like there's alot of stuff to remember even with one Kanji. The character itself, the stroke order, on and kun readings, what they mean and how they should be used seem pretty hard to memorise in "raw" form. I suppose what I'm asking is: has anyone come across an effective method of linking these things together, or just making them easier to remember by way of a system?

Thanks for your time folks, any answers would be appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.242.23 (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Japanese is one of the world's easiest languages to learn how to speak, but at the same time is one of the world's hardest languages to learn to read and write. The short answer is "No, Japanese is generally not written with spaces between words". This means, you have to know not only the single Kanji words, but multiple Kanji words (but most are in groups of 2 - though there may be several of these groupings strung together). In addition, the Kana, like the Kanji, are written without spaces as well, which means you have to know when to read the Kana as a pure phonetic element or when to read it with a special pronunciation due to its grammatical function... which just means practice, practice, practice. Don't sweat. Even Japanese have problems. As for the On/Kun readings, this too do have some flexibility, so don't get hung up on it. The best way is to take in the concept of the word and not down to the mechanics of the word. Focus on how the language is spoken, and then just drudge away at making the written language fit the spoken. Sorry if this wasn't too helpful. CJLippert 15:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are some general rules. Kanji are usually (but not always) pronounced in their On form when they are in groups of 2 or more. They are usually pronounced with their Kun form when they are on their own, and very often they are accompanied by hiragana in this case. Speaking about the kana not having any spaces, I know of a particular example that usually can be worked out by context:

Sign at the entrance of a hotel or hot spring: ここではきものをぬいでください。 Is that 'kokode, hakimono wo nuide kudasai' or 'kokodewa, kimono wo nuide kudasai'?

You just get used to it after a while. Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 19:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Kanji are hopelessly complex, and the Japanese managed to lumber themselves permanently with a system totally unsuited to representing their language that just has to be learnt by brute force of memorisation, but there are few bits of good news. First is that even the most complex kanji are always made up of a few smaller ones bunched together as one. Once you know a mere 800 or so basic kanji, you'll find it reasonably easy to pick up the complex ones because you can think ah, this one's just a composite of three kanji: 'rain' on top, 'foot' bottom left, and 'ritual self-immolation' bottom right.

Second is that Japanese can make a huge range of very subtle compound words by combining sequences of kanji. It's a bit similar to the way in which we can coin words in English from Latin or Greek roots: if I made up a word like 'symphonophobia', for instance, you'd probably guess that it was something to do with a fear of large-scale orchestral music based on a logically evolving motivic premise. Well, Japanese can do stuff like that all the time. The catch is that, because it's written in kanji, you'd know exactly what it meant at a glance if you encountered it in print, but might not be sure of the pronunciation. Even if you were, the pronunciation would be so bland thanks to all those pesky homophones that the spoken result wouldn't be comprehensible (it would just sound like another jumble of koh, kyoh, kyo, ku, sha, shi, ka etc).

In short: kanji are maddening but fascinating, with a magnificent illogic all of their own. If you like language you'll love delving into their complexities and quirky beauties. And (just as English speakers love talking about our comically inconsistent spelling) the Japanese love talking about kanji as this monstrous but strangely rewarding shared burden. It's a wonderful and intriguing system; it's just rubbish for writing a language with. All in my humble experience anyway etc. RA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.66.229.8 (talk) 08:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Basicaly, there are 1600 kanji that people learn up to high school, and then another 400 extra ones that do not have to be strictly learnt at school, but do help when reading newspapers and literature. However, there are over 6,000 kanji in use (not exactly daily use), and as said above, there are new ones being either imported from China or being newly constructed. The traditional kanji are the easiest to remember to read, as the modernized ones tend to have lost some of the 'logic' in them. There was no real standard-simplification rules for the kanji, which is also compounded even more in Japan as only some of the simplified kanji were borrowed from China, whereas Japan simplified others in their own way, and furthermore, both simplified and unsimplified are in current use.

The biggest problem, however, is with names of people and places. People's family names are fairly straight-forward, as there are not many of them. Given names are harder, as someone may have a 'standard' standard name, like 'Shinji' or 'Emiko', but if you don't know the person it can be very hard to work out the actual pronunciation of the name. Plave names are worse. Sometimes, like 東京 'Tokyo', it is very straightforward, but the smaller towns can have names where the kanji is the same as one of the major towns (神戸 'kobe', 'kanbe', depending on which town you are talking about), or the kanji might be completely unrelated. Plus, the Japanese pronunciation of Chinese place names will either have its own Japanese pronunciation of the name, or the 'English' pronunciation, like 北京 'Pekin' and 香港 'Honkon'.Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 12:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers guys. It seems alot of Japanese relies on the context of the conversation/writing your reading, rather than the definitiveness of an isolated statement. I guess its something you get accustomed to the more you practice, but it is strange when you first start learning.

So with the Japanese language as a whole, does anyone who's studied it have any general tips or methods of learning they've found effective? It seems every book and website suggests different styles of learning, how much to learn in a given time, etc. For example, I've seen some suggest learning to speak Japanese before even picking up a pen to write it (just listening and reading romaji), while others discourage the use of romaji. Just wondered if you guys who've been there and done it have any wise words.

Thanks again in advance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.241.7 (talk) 23:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

What works for one person may not work for the next. Also, an approach that is good if you spend eight hours or more a day studying Japanese may be less effective if you spend no more than ten hours a week on it. Keeping that in mind, learning to read and write katakana and hiragana really well is relatively easy and almost certainly worth the investment. My advice, for what it is worth (my efforts to learn Japanese have had very limited success), is to also start early with learning kanji: since it will take you a couple of years to master this, you don't want to start late. Make sure you learn, with each character, how to write it with the correct stroke order. But take it easy, say one character a day, and as CJLippert already said, concentrate on the meaning and don't sweat memorizing the on and kun readings – they will come naturally as your Japanese improves. Don't expect, though, that in this stage you will be able to understand a text, even if you already know all characters; usually you won't be able to. So this is all next to and relatively independent of learning the (spoken) language. If you are immersed in a context where people constantly teach you spoken Japanese and patiently listen to your fumbling attempts to speak it, then by all means skip reading & writing romaji texts. Otherwise, I don't see how avoiding romaji can be helpful. Once you have reached the stage that you comprehend most romaji texts without too much effort, start reading texts in the Japanese writing system with a comparable level of complexity. In the end, the only thing that works is practice.  --Lambiam^Talk 17:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Most beginners' manuals worth their salt actually have sentences written in more or less standard written Japanese (i.e. with level-appropriate kanji) and include furigana (kana on top of the kanji to show the pronunciation). These type of books allow you to get used to seeing the language written at the same time as being able to pronounce the sentence properly (and look up words you don't know in a dictionary). As reading material for when your language gets a bit better, I would definitely recommend manga, as they are almost all written like this. Scouse Mouse - 日英翻訳 19:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems to be the general consensus, going by what other people have said too. Thanks for the help guys.

BTW Scouse Mouse, just read your profile, and blog, nice to see a fellow brit. What's it like actually living out there, if I may be so bold?

Some help with a German word

The name for the Rhine river in German, "Rhein", is very perplexing to me in terms of how to pronounce it...I'm a Spanish student, and pretty much the only word I know in German is how to say "bless you". Is the Rhine river pronounced like "rain", or is it obvious and pronounced like its English name? --Kitty ^who? 23:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of der Rhein, via dict.leo.org. Jacek Kendysz 00:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Link doesn't work for me. o_O --Kitty ^who? 01:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like "rine", with a German R sound.--Sonjaaa 04:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Okie dokie, thank you. --Kitty ^who? 12:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)