Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 22

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May 22

Russian word "стрёмe"

Can someone please tell me what the word "стрёмe" means? I can't seem to find it anywhere and it's been driving me crazy. It's usually found in the combination "на стрёмe", so I assume it's in the prepositional case. Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 15:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Google translate translates "на стрёме" sometimes as "at the aim –"[1] and sometimes as "at the Xtreme"[2], but the latter only if the "С" is a capital letter. Go figure. By the way, Cyrillic "е" and Latin "e" are different characters; you used the Latin letter, which initially made my searches (based on a copy of the string) fail.  --Lambiam^Talk 21:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be a technically incorrect form of the word стремя, but one that may have found its way into current idiom. The normal declension in the singular is:

• стремя in nominative and accusative
• стремени in genitive, dative and prepositional, and
• стременем in instrumental. JackofOz 04:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, how would you pronounce "стрёмe", I find that I can pronounce most cryllic words quite well due to knowledge of both greek and latin alphabets. but the "ст" has me stumped. What sound is this? 213.48.15.234 08:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I get "stryo-myeh" (sorry, i have no knowledge of the IPA)Storeye 09:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah okay so c is sigma-ish? okay that makes sense. 213.48.15.234 09:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert on linguistic evolution, but that would be my guess of its origin. A lot of cyrillic letters look like anglo or greek ones but are pronounced differently Storeye 09:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Es (Cyrillic) tells the tale. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The "C" form of Greek sigma ("lunate sigma") was common within Greek in the early centuries A.D...

It must be some kind of idiomatic expression. It is often put in quotations, so presumably it is used both literally and figuratively. Bhumiya (said/done) 16:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a slangy term for "on the alert, en garde". It is used specifically to refer to a criminal/delinquent who acts as a sentinel when his pals break into premises or commit theft. They say that he stands "на стрёме". His task is to let them know when somebody (police) is approaching. "Стрематься" is a slangy adjective for "to feel scared/ashamed of smth"; "стрёмно" is an adverb which roughly means "unbecoming, unseemly, out of order". --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 12:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

French book title

Hello. When I mention a French book in an English article, should I capitalize the words in it? For example, L'être et le néant or L'être et le Néant? Cheers.--K.C. Tang 03:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No. French uses the same capitalization in titles as in normal sentences, so it's L'être et le néant. (Of course the first word is capitalized.) —Angr 04:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

so people never anglicize it (capitalize the words, except articles and prepositions, in it) in an English context, right?--K.C. Tang 04:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Nup. According to any Style guide worth its salt, L'année dernière à Marienbad and À la recherche du temps perdu in English are Last Year at Marienbad and (Yes, I know there are better title translations) In Search of Lost Time. <mild pedantic rant> If you write the title in English, use English capitalisation rules; if you write the title in French, use French capitalisation rules.</mild pedantic rant> --Shirt58 11:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

French usage is not as uniform as it has been presented above. Other possibilities you will see in well-edited French are L'Être et le Néant[3] (capitalization of important words) and L’Etre et le néant[4] (capitalization of the first word not an article; I've seen this in a lot of publications, and French wikipedia confirms, "traditionnellement...tout se passe comme si le titre commençait sans l'article"). In French Wikipedia, you will find these alongside the standard usage given by Angr (the former in e.g. Le Quart Livre = [5], L'Être et le Néant). Wareh 12:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You're right, Wareh! That's why I asked here. I have to edit some English texts which mention some French book titles, but I'm not sure what the standard practice is, as I've come crossed the inconsistence you mentioned above. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization of "downtown"

Would the name "Downtown Richmond" be capitalized, it is a neighborhood within Richmond California, with its own article, i reckon since it is a proper name, and a particularization that is a particular place name downtown should be capitalized, what is the capitalization rule for wikipedia?^{T ALK}•^QR_C2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 05:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I would say yes, unless you are speaking generically, as in, 'Let's go downtown.' If you read MOS:CAPS, section 7 (directions and regions) it would seem to say that this area, like other neighborhoods, should be capped. The article on Richmond and on Downtown Richmond both seem to recognize this as a specific entity--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 05:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Then you would be mistaken. First of all, MOS:CAPS has nothing to say about this; it only deals with directions as parts of place names (e.g., Southern California, which does get capitalized). Every usage guide I've found says that "downtown [anywhere]" does not get capitalized. Yes, it does indicate a specific place, but that has nothing to do with capitalization. "Downtown" is simply a descriptor, an adjective, and as such it doesn't form a proper name phrase. (There are adjectives that form proper names, like "Old Sacramento", but this isn't the same thing.) This one is pretty unambiguous.

If you want to check, here are some links: [6] [7] [8].

Also [9] and [10]. If you want any more, just holler ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

That was my original thought until I looked at the articles the OP is referring to, Richmond, California and Downtown (Richmond), and my reference to the section of the MOS was in relation to 'Southern California', where 'Southern' is used as a proper noun, rather than a direction. It seemed from the context of the articles that 'Downtown' is being used as a part of a proper noun, but I could be wrong. Perhaps a look at the city's website might give an answer (not that they necessarily got it right either).--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 07:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's true: lots of city, Chamber of Commerce, etc., sites are likely to get this wrong. Here are a couple other ways to look at this. First, instead of "downtown", substitute "central" and figure out if that should be capitalized (generally not). Secondly, and this may not be the most apt example, consider describing an intersection: "the corner of 9th and Broadway". "Corner" isn't capitalized here; however, if it becomes part of a place name, like Carsons Corner, then it is capitalized. But not "downtown". +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point, I do think it possible that some cities actually define an area, actually name it, in a way that would be capped, but I don't know if that is the case here. Uncapped until proven otherwise is definitely the rule here. In the Big Apple is there not Uptown, or is it just uptown?--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 07:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"Uptown" is different, and is capitalized in those cities where it occurs (e.g., Chicago). For one thing, it becomes the name of the neighborhood: one refers to "Uptown", not "uptown Chicago". Different from downtown, which, again, is simply a generic adjective describing any city's central business district (generally speaking, though there are exceptions), or simply "the place where the tall buildings are". +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Right. Strictly speaking you should only capitalize a term like this if you can find it on a map, i.e. it's a recognized place name. (More loosely, however, in literature you can treat the name of a significant place as a place name even when it isn't literally, e.g. "We went Downtown.")--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Dunno what you mean by "in literature", but any reputable editor at a publishing house would knock that down to "downtown". Not that the incorrect, capitalized version doesn't occur abundantly; that doesn't make it correct (at least for our purposes, here at this eminently credible encyclopedia ...). +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The reason, in case it isn't clear, is not because Downtown Richmond is never correct (though I don't like it). It's because "downtown" in this sentence acts as a preposition, rather than as a noun or modifier. It would be equally wrote to write "I didn't get Home until almost midnight." Tesseran 21:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

On Interstate signage Central Richmond is also capitalized, i think it should be capitalized since it is a proper noun, its a place which is a noun and it is a particular place, its Downtown Richmond a neighbrhood, were talking about the neighborhood independantly of the city, whereas it would be lowercase if it were downtown Richmond, speaking of that citys downtown area, but in this case downtown is not independant of Richmond, it is a portion of Richmond, in the capitalized Downtown Richmond were not speaking of the city of Richmond we are speaking of the nieghborhood of Downtown Richmond, a particular place/name/placename and henceforth a proper noun, proper nouns are capitalized^{T ALK}•^QR_C2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 23:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever seen a highway sign on which the first word was not capitalized? —Tamfang 21:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that any well-formed sentence in English begins w/a capital letter ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)