Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 October 24

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October 24

French

I'm trying to learn French, but with my busy day it is very hard. Do you have any good suggestions about how I can make time and learn more French? I need a plan to learn as much as possible, do you have any teaching stragties. They would be very much apperciated. Thanks, Kim Jones

Immersion is usually a quick way to learn a language, and probably more effective than classes or memorising verbs from a textbook. That's not too easy if you're not in a Francophone country or area, but you could try and meet some French people to socialise with and chat over coffee and croissants. If you don't have much time for classes and study, try watching French movies with the subtitles on, or listen to French music/radio while you're going to sleep. If you're busy at work all day, try setting your work computer's language to French - you'll learn some French pretty quickly (maybe just cursing) if you need to do something on that computer! Have a look at the French Wikipedia as well. --Canley 03:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

A good lazy strategy for becoming better at a language that you are generally familiar with is watching movies in your native language subtitled in the foreign language, in your case movies in English subtitled in French. Once you start to understand more of the written language (this is often easier, especially with French, which has many common roots with English, but very different pronunciation), you can move onto watching French movies subtitled in French, so that you can excercise understanding spoken language. Watching the same movie multiple times helps, so try to choose movies you will enjoy. Another good habit, both when watching movies and reading books is to pause and check unknown words in a dictionary - you often subsequently notice that the new word you learned is much more common than you thought before, when you were ignoring it. Zocky | picture popups 04:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have a world reciever, tune in to a French station (make sure it's the right kind of French for your purposes). This makes sense from the very beginning, to get a feeling for the language. DirkvdM 07:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If you still are into textbooks, try the wikibook method to learn french it is extremely complete with audio and everything. Otherwise, if you are in a hurry, I agree with Canley: you need immersion: go into a country where people only speak French and don't understand your mother tongue, all alone, with French lessons everyday for several weeks. Once there you have try and survive on your own, get food, make friends etc. This is the fatest known way to learn any foreign language. But it is also the hardest for the nerves. --Lgriot 11:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I heard that the language in Tintin comics was good for learning, if you like comics. Otherwise, some good French language movies I could recommend are Cleo from 5 to 7 by Agnès Varda, The 400 Blows by François Truffaut, Le Mépris and La Chinoise by Jean-Luc Godard, La Haine by Mathieu Kassovitz, A Man Escaped by Robert Bresson, The Big Blue, Nikita and Leon by Luc Besson, Delicatessen and Amelie by Jean-Pierre Jeunet, Sitcom, Water Drops on Burning Rocks and 8 femmes by François Ozon and The Silent World by Louis Malle. I like all of these movies in some way, but hopefully the list is broad enoguh to cover most tastes... 惑乱 分からん 15:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This site seems like a pretty good place to find a language exchange partner that you can practice with. Also this essay has some good insights on new language learning in general. It's geared for non-beginners, but is still useful as are some of the other essays on that site. I also second Wakuran's idea that movies are pretty helpful when a native speaker isn't available. The subtitles fit the bill of having a lot of comprehensible input, though of course you can't trust them too much, they're usually gisting translations. - Taxman ^Talk 14:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't wanna spoil the fun... but from my own experiene I would say that... the textbook way isn't that bad after all. Of course, watching lots of (subtitled!) movies and reading lots of newspapers (or sites, times have changed:) ) will help, especially to help you memorize it..but face it : one page in a good book can explain you something that would taken months if you had to figure it out on your own. A problem with books is of course that they don't give you the pronunciation :( .Evilbu 22:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I need to know how to properly state a statement

Is this statement spelled correctly "Evangelical Radicals! Doth Mercy"?

Yes, but Mercy and Radicals should probably be in the miniscule. X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve) 07:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

why?

I think "Doth" should be spelled "Do", assuming this is meant to be an imperative. "Doth" is indicative mood, an old version of "does", as in: "But he that doth truth cometh to the light." So in a fragment containing both moods we see: "For whatsoever ye would that they should do unto you, do ye also unto them." (Mat. vii. 12.) Nothing burdensome, nothing offensive, doth this law contain.  --Lambiam^Talk 11:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Doth" is also singular and "Radicals" is plural. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

management

what is streamlined operation?What are the disadvantages of Internet protocol?plz answer soon.

What is the context? An operation is called "streamlined" if it works smoothly. There are hundreds of Internet protocols. What is this supposed to have to do with management?  --Lambiam^Talk 11:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think streamlined means it's more efficient, which usually means smaller. For example, an Internet-only retailer doesn't need to have a string of stores, complex distribution network, etc. StuRat 06:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

As for disadvantages, I'd have to know the context. (The disadvantages of using the Internet for what ?) If using it to sell things, the main disadvantage is that many people won't buy things sight-unseen, especially if it involves sending credit card info over the Internet. Other disadvantages are the shipping fees and time delay until customers get their orders. StuRat 06:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, this question doesn't seem to belong on the Language Ref Desk. StuRat 06:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Polish translation verification

I just wanted to make sure that this image said "Dedicated in memory of unborn childs – victims of abortion." "You will not hear my voice and my heart beat. The heart, that wanted to love you. Why didn't you want me mommy, why didn't you want me papa?" Thanks.--Andrew c 13:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know Polish, but a more idiomatic version of the first sentence would be "Dedicated to the memory of unborn children – victims of abortion." JackofOz 13:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's what it says. Vespine 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

And think of all the unborn children because their non-parents became nuns and priests, or used condoms, or both. Why don't they get a monument? They would have wanted to live, to laugh, to love, and to (pa)troll the RD too. Think of them...  --Lambiam^Talk 14:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I read some underground comic once, where a guy tried to save his sperm to preserve the theoretical intelligence from all his unborn children. The story didn't have a happy ending... =S 惑乱 分からん 15:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Inuktitut word meaning future & Inuktitut word meaning peace

I would like to know the Inuktitut words for future and peace. Thank you!

Wiktionary:peace says "peace" is "totkipon" (although it indicates that this translation needs to be checked so it may be wrong), but it does not have the Inuktitut for "future." -Elmer Clark 21:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Could someone translate this for me?

I'm looking to translate this short, somewhat difficult paragraph into as many languages as I can. Babelfish and similar services are too inaccurate for me. I really appreciate the help of everyone who replies. The words in brackets are part of the quote and not vandalism as they may seem. Thanks. I (FREEDOM FIGHTER BOMBING) love you whether you reply or (JIHAD) not. If my (GODLESS WESTERN PRESIDENT) letters are flagged, our love will outlive us in their (SUBWAY SARIN GAS) computers.

So tell us first, what are you (GREEN COLORLESS IDEAS DREAM FURIOUSLY) going to do with these (FURSHLUGGINER MOHOLY NAGY) translations? 64.123.56.66 15:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Decorate a school binder with them. It's a passage from the webcomic A Softer World (Link to strip). It does look shady, doesn't it?

Why do we capitalize the word "I"

Why does English capitalize "I", but none of the other pronouns? me, we, us, you, he, she, it, they, them-- all lowercase. Where does "I" get off, thinking it's so special? lol anyonne know why it is this way, or when that got started? --Alecmconroy 16:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well "I" is a lot more phallic than "i" so you just have to do it. X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve) 18:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Because I am very important. Actually, I don't know, but it's a good question. Perhaps it is a relic of the time when all nouns were capitalised (although in German all nouns are capitalised but pronouns, such as "I", are not)? —Daniel (‽) 18:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as i know it's a typography thing. That word used to be longer (like in German it's 'ich', i'm sure in Old English it was some variant of that), but eventually it got shortened. Then when the printing press got popular they discovered that the small 'i' tended to get lost in the text. Hard to see for some reason. Just a consequence of the way the press was designed i suppose. So anyway they decided to capitalise it, and that more or less fixed the problem.

I think it's a stupid archaic thing to do, so i personally treat 'i' like every other pronoun — capitalised only at the beginning of the sentence. But i'm weird like that. ~ lav-chan @ 18:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK it's a calligraphy thing which predates printing. --Kjoonlee 04:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

AUE: FAQ excerpt: Why is "I" capitalized?

Before the birth of William Caxton. --Kjoonlee 04:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• I thought the capital letter pre-dated the full stop?hotclaws**==(Hypnosadist 11:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC))

why capitalise anything at all, for that matter? we don't even need a capital letter to mark the beginning of a sentence because the preceding punctuation mark takes care of that. dirkvdm 06:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

WHY USE CASE AT ALL, FOR THAT MATTER? THE ROMANS DID NOT NEED ANY! --Kjoonlee 07:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

They certainly did use cases. JackofOz 09:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Really? The Capital letters article seems to say otherwise. (I meant letter case, not declension.) --Kjoonlee 12:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I misinterpreted you. I just thought you were shouting.  :) JackofOz 21:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Heh. My mistake, really. I should have wrote WHY VSE CASE AT ALL? --Kjoonlee 09:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No, not really, you shouldn't have wrote that at all. :) JackofOz 22:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

meaning of word "semmit", from Scottish movie subtitle in "Dear Frankie"

In the middle of the above named film, three women are singing a song. The first two lines end with the word "limit", and the final stanza ends with the word "semmit", in the context "If you let them get under your semmit". The film is in English from Scotland but spoken with a heavy brogue. I cannot find any definition in even my huge unabridged dictionary, even with close or alternate spelling like simit oe semit. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

"vest" --BluePlatypus 20:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

British vest or American vest? Skittle 15:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

British. Not just because of the Scottish context, but the literal one too, since they seem to mean "under your clothes" and not just "under your jacket". --BluePlatypus 14:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Japanese

Does Śiva figure in Japanese Buddhist literature? If so, what is he called? Essentially, I'm asking for a kanji rendering of my name.

Also, why are fountain pens called "ten-thousand-year brushes" in Japanese?--Siva 21:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

For the first set of questions, I don't think he does. His Japanese name is simply Shiva, which uses katakana (シヴァ) rather than kanji. --Ptcamn 22:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

How come Brahma and Ganesha have kanji equivalents (梵天 and 歓喜天, respectively), but Shiva doesn't? Is there at least a place where I can find a more or less comprehensive list of Buddhist terms in Japanese?--Siva 22:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Ten thousand" has the connotation "many many", "a myriad". (See, for example, Banzai.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

My guess about your third question, Shiva, is the permanence of the writing produced via fountain pen versus that produced by a brush. Pen writing was probably thought to last much longer than the traditional brush writing. -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 22:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You think? I think it might be that a fountain pen holds ink a lot longer than a brush. But...are only newfangled fountain pens with reservoirs called ten thousand year brushes, or also old ones that you had to dip all the time like quills (or brushes)? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• If it's a "dip" pen then it's not a fountain pen,it's just called a pen.(hotclaws**== 11:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC))

Makes sense. --Siva 22:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The ja:シヴァ article's "other names" section mentions 大自在天 which is a redirect to 伊舎那天. Only the reservoir type pens are called fountain pens in Korea. --Kjoonlee 04:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I've never seen 伊舎那天 before. 大自在天 is more common in Korea. --Kjoonlee 04:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The kanji rendering of Śiva seems to be 湿婆. See [1]. --Tohru 09:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Siva really does have many names. There's also Mahesvara (摩醯首羅, Makeishura). --Kjoonlee 12:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

La plus que lente

In 1910, Debussy wrote a little waltz for piano which he titled "La plus que lente". I've often wondered what he really meant by that title. Is it just a tempo indication, or does it refer to something else? Is it any kind of allusion to Cesar Franck's "Danse lente", written 25 years earlier? My French isn't up to speed, but literally it seems to mean "The more than slow". But more what than slow? Slower than slow? It is usually played at a moderate tempo, ie. faster than slow. JackofOz 23:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the history behind the walz, but I would translate: "The one more than slow" --Lgriot 08:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not sure I understand what that means. JackofOz 09:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the piece of music, or much about Debussy, and my French ain't great either, but surely this just means 'The more than slow dance', ie the very, very slow dance? N'est-ce pas? It would be interesting to know if Debussy indicated any tempo marking. Maid Marion 12:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• I've dug out my copy of the music. The tempo and style indication is Lent (Molto rubato con morbidezza). So there's a mismatch between the tempo (slow) and the title (more than slow).
• I've heard it played by many dozens of pianists, and it's always played at a tempo that I would never describe as "slow". More like moderato. So the 3rd mystery is why everyone seems to play it faster than the composer intended. (Or maybe it's relatively slow compared with, eg. most of the waltzes of Chopin). It seems they interpret "plus que" as "plus vite que". If there are any pianists who play it very slowly ("plus tard que"), I've never heard them.
• Maybe Debussy is being deliberately vague, in keeping with the mood of the music, and trusting that pianists will discern the mood of the piece and find its natural tempo without too much overt direction.
• He uses the feminine "La" and "lente", so some feminine noun is understood. I have always assumed this word is "valse", but I could be completely off track there.
• I'd really appreciate any further thoughts anyone has about this. JackofOz 13:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• • I'm not familiar with this particular piece of Debussy, but the way I read it is "more (of the same) but slow". The que is not "than" here, so much as "but". And yeah, the "la" is a pronoun: "La plus" means "more of that", where "that" is feminine. So if there was a waltz in the series of pieces beforehand, or whatever piece it was, the title means "this is more of the same progression/melody/idea, but slow". And this doesn't have anything to do with the tempo indication lente. Debussy is infamous for being inventive with tempo and other musical indications; i.e. just because it says "slow" doesn't mean it necessarily is (to a non-musician); Scriabin and Ravel are worse but never mind that for now.Skookum1 18:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. This gets curiouser by the minute. It's a stand-alone piece, unrelated to any other of his works. If the feminine "La plus" has nothing to do with "lente", what is the reason for choosing the feminine form of the latter word? (Not that I have anything against the feminine). What has really surprised me thus far is that nobody else seems to know, or even have ever heard of, what is one of Debussy's most recorded pieces. Maybe I'm mixing with the wrong crowd. :) JackofOz 00:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I found this description at allmusic.com, which may be of help: [2]. It doesn't look like there's a definite answer, though. I imagine Debussy meant the title to be deliberately ambiguous. Lesgles (talk) 22:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

For music lovers : [3] says : "La plus que lente, waltz for piano (or orchestra), L. 121 - The title might be translated into English as "The Even Slower Waltz"; at the time it carried subtle connotations beyond the evocation of a popular style. La plus que lente appeared soon after the publication of Book I of Debussy's Preludes, in 1910. It represented Debussy's laconic reaction to the pervasive influence of the slow waltz in France's coffee-houses, dance-halls, and salons. But, writes Frank Howes, "'La plus que lente' is, in Debussy's wryly humorous way, the valse lente to outdo all others." -- DLL ^{.. T} 16:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

How is this piece not related to other works by Debussy? It is rife with his subtlety. Look at the use of chromaticism in the appassionato section, starting bar 46. Actually, there are some other interesting things too...parts of whole tone scales, and careful use of dissonance. We should get a GFDL recording of this. :-) --HappyCamper 03:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, all of any composer's pieces are related to each other in the sense that they were all composed by the same person. My earlier comment was in response to Skookum's So if there was a waltz in the series of pieces beforehand, or whatever piece it was, the title means "this is more of the same progression/melody/idea, but slow". "La plus" is not part of any series or set of pieces, it is just a single piece of music. He may have been subtly alluding to other valses/waltzes, but offhand I can't think of any other piece that Debussy wrote that could be called a valse/waltz, so any such allusion would have to be to the works of others. Re Frank Howes statement, if it was a slow waltz to outdo all others, that might lead one to expect it to be played very slowly indeed - except nobody I've ever heard plays it that way. This certainly wouldn't be the first time a composer's intentions were routinely ignored, but even the "experts" like Walter Gieseking and Roy Howatt do it. JackofOz 00:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)