Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 January 14

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January 14

Name of two scholars

I need the name of two scholars: an Austrian historian specialized in history and theory of revolutions (I read once he considered the French one a bourgeois revolution and the Russian one the first truly popular revolution) and an American or British philosopher who was asked - after a study lasting two or three years - to evalutate whether God exists or not.-- Carnby (talk) 15:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Friedrich von Gentz was an Austrian who wrote a book comparing the American and French revolutions, but he was a little early for the Russian. In the 1980s, I saw several times in used bookstores a mid-20th-century work comparing the American, French, and Russian revolutions, but I'm having difficulty Googling it... AnonMoos (talk) 19:21, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Funnily enough, the second chap made me think of Bertrand Russell, but I couldn't precisely say why 🤔 ——Serial 20:24, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

They're both contemporary ones.-- Carnby (talk) 21:02, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. As far as consider[ing] the French one a bourgeois revolution and the Russian one the first truly popular revolution goes, Lenin, Trotsky and almost every successive communist thinker would agree! ——Serial 17:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the first I found two names, both of which are bi-nationals. Julius Braunthal was the first Secretary General of Socialist International and is expanding accordingly in History-International-Vol-1864-1914, Maximilian Nacht either only studied in Vienna, or is an Austrian according to de:Maximilian Nacht. He is more explicitly a scholar and initially pro-Soviet but turning to anarchy after the 1920s and thus then not a supporter of the idea that the Russian revolution had cured the state from the bourgeois component (Apostles of Revolution). --Askedonty (talk) 08:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

John Smith Clarke Politician

What info do you have about his early upbringing before he became a lion tamer? ChewMagna (talk) 20:06, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link: John S. Clarke. Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I found this Google Books snippet view, from which I have been able to wring out:

He was born on 4 February 1885 at 66 Albert Street, a small terraced house near the centre of Jarrow, County Durham. It was a rapidly expanding town dominated by Sir Charles Palmer's ship-building, the ironworks and coal mines. As these industries grew, so did Jarrow: in 1891 its population was 33,000. The hordes of newcomers, many from Ireland, nearly all of them poor, gave it an atmosphere akin to that of an American frontier town. This restless and sometimes violent environment must have had its effect on the boy John S. He may well have heard of socialism for the first .time in Jarrow a branch of the Independent Labour Party existed there from the 1890s. He was the thirteenth of fourteen children, only seven of whom survived to adult life. John S. Clarke senior and his wife Sally Ann née Chiswell both came from gypsy stock; the Clarkes were a circus family. After the open road they must have considered Jarrow a grim place , and John senior's job as a draper's assistant can hardly have been congenial to him : in the typical shop of that period, assistants were expected to be thoroughly servile. He found more attractive employment in opening new shops. This called for specialised knowledge and provided him with a better income than that of the average wage-slave in retail distribution; and it gave him some independence. Journeying about the country, not knowing where he would go next, made an existence not unlike the one he had forsaken. The family's travels meant that young John S. received little formal education. Perhaps by his parents' design, they found themselves repeatedly in the vicinity of either a circus or gypsies. A dictionary of circus personalities lists nine members of the Clarke family including a clown, a juggler, an elephant trainer and a rope-dancer; an earlier John, at the beginning of the nineteenth century, was a circus pioneer who held performances in open fields before the Big Top had been thought of. These relatives and friends would make a fuss of the boy , teaching him the tricks of their trade . By the age of ten he could ride a horse without saddle or bridle. From learning to break and train horses for public performance, he became familiar with more dangerous animals. Later he recalled... That's the limit of my Google-fu I'm afraid.

John S. Clarke: Parliamentarian, Poet, Lion-tamer, Raymond Challinor, Pluto Press, 1977 (p.11)

Alansplodge (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Another find is this precis of the same work, which mentions that he went to sea aged 12. Alansplodge (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Alansplodge. The reason for the question is because John Smith Clarke was my grandad's first cousin. The Clarke family were from Bath, Somerset. When I've researched I've read he came from a gypsy family and brought up in a circus. Which I have found no evidence of. His father was a cloth salesman, married to Sarah Chiswell (not Sally), she was my great grandmother's sister. They travelled the country of which i have records for. The 1901 Census, Byker, Northumberland states he was a messenger for North Eastern Railway and that his mother was Sarah,b. 1844 Bishop Sutton and father John Smith Clarke b. 1844 Bath. It was at this time he was a lion tamer. I also have dna matches from the Clarke/Chiswell family on Ancestry. I think he must have known people in the circus but doubt he was from a gypsy family.

Thanks for your reply. ChewMagna (talk) 21:49, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Sally was/is a pet-form of Sarah, just as Nelly was of Helen, and Nan or Nancy of Ann. She could very well have been given the name Sarah, but be known to the family as Sally. ColinFine (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes that is possible. ChewMagna (talk) 22:05, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I can think of quite a few Sarahs in my own family tree who were known as Sally - from England, Ireland and America. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:49, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Not a particularly important bit of information, but out of curiosity I found an 1894-95 map of the Jarrow area, and it seems that 66 Albert Street (likely Albert Road) probably doesn't exist anymore, as can be seen with the modern layout of the area. GalacticShoe (talk) 22:23, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I imagine that the information in the Challinor book came from Clarke's own autobiographical works, which perhaps should be your next area of research.

Circus Parade can be had for a tenner from Oxfam, although Roughing it round the world has proved more elusive and doesn't seem to have a Worldcat entry. Alansplodge (talk) 22:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Alansplodge I'll have a look. ChewMagna (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Circus Parade on Archive.org. DuncanHill (talk) 02:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

DuncanHill Thank you. ChewMagna (talk) 08:09, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

That turns out to be a history of circuses. The only autobiogrphical part of the book is the foreword, where Clarke states that Gypsies were rarely found in circuses and were viewed with suspicion by circus folk, which I suppose proves that the Clarke fanily is not of Gypsy heritage. Alansplodge (talk) 13:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Alansplodge. I've ordered a copy of Circus Parade it'll be an interesting read i expect. I replied to a request some years ago from the National Portrait Gallery (portrait of John Smith Clarke in gallery) asking if anyone had any information about him, clearly they didn't know his family history either. ChewMagna (talk) 15:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I have added some brief updates to our article based on the links above, should the NPG ever wish to look him up. Alansplodge (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your help Alansplodge. ChewMagna (talk) 15:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ive read the added info on Wiki. The only thing i dont agree with is the part saying his family was from a 'circus background'. Neither John Smith Clarke )his father) or Sarah Ann Chiswell (his mother) have circus history as far as i can see. His grandmother, Maria Smith was a schoolmistress. His grandfather Harding Chiswell, a blacksmith. All records and info is on Ancestry.com. ChewMagna (talk) 16:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

There's more evidence that he didn't come from a circus background than there's evidence that he did. ChewMagna (talk) 16:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I question Raymond Challinor's account in his book, published 1977: "Journeying around the country, not knowing where he would go next....the family's travels meant John S. received little formal education." First, John was born in Jarrow when the family's travelling around the country had come to an end. Secondly, in the 1891 Census John's status was scholar. It seems Raymond Challinor wasn't 100% sure either. 87.115.116.48 (talk) 20:15, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

A few more things I'd like to add:

1. Raymond Challinor found a few circus performers with the surname Clarke. Wheres the evidence that these performers worked at the same circus in Northumberland at the same time as John Smith Clarke? If he had that evidence he would have put it in the book.

2.Was he able to have access to the Census records in 1977? Probably not, as the Freedom of Information Act didnt come out till the year 2000.

3. Information from a biography really shouldnt be added to Wikipaedia unless it has been proven to be fact. ChewMagna (talk) 00:46, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

See WP:reliable sources. Raymond Challinor is a reputable historian. If he is wrong, we need to have a reliable source that says so. We can't use WP:original research. That is how Wikipedia works. John's parents must have had some connection with the circus, otherwise how does a 10 year-old become a bareback rider? Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe he had a friend in the circus, who knows. I dont doubt that Raymond Challinor is a reputable historian. So all your evidence is based on what he says. His biography was of the time. ChewMagna (talk) 11:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Researchers today will read that book and also look at the records, Census etc and make up their own minds. ChewMagna (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Excerpt from Circus Parade by John Smith Clarke, published 1936:

"My only connection with the circus world covers a period of thirty-five years. I was a rough rider when only ten years of age, a performer with wild animals at sixteen..." Biographer might have interpreted him being a "rough rider..." as him being a bare-back rider in a circus and from a circus family. The book was written in 1936, when he was aged 51. ChewMagna (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello @ChewMagna! I did a lot of work on this article to get it to GA. Happy to help your research if required :) Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ Unexpectedlydian^♯4talk^‽ 10:09, 20 January 2024 (UTC)