Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 November 5

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November 5

Throne of skulls

It's a common trope in fantasy fiction, but in real life did any historical figure build a thone from the dead skulls of his enemies? Did used to think Vlad the Impaler did, but apparently not. 146.200.127.248 (talk) 03:28, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

It was Tamerlane (as he was traditionally known in English). Our Timur article doesn't mention it, but a Google search for "Tamerlane throne of skulls" turns up promising-looking links... AnonMoos (talk) 10:31, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

A "throne of skulls" appears in Oahspe: A New Bible of 1882. Written by an American spiritualist dentist, he purported that it was writen by angels through his hand. The passage in question refers to a character called Baugh-Ghan-Ghad here.

For historical abuse of skulls (although not throne-building), see skull cup. Alansplodge (talk) 13:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Sigillographie de l'Orient latin

Hey, everyone. Does anyone have the book Sigillographie de l'Orient latin by Gustave Schlumberger? It contains a seal of Abbess Ioveta, the only depiction of her known to me, at or near page 122. It is in public domain so we could upload it to the Commons and use it in our article. Ping me if you have it or know where to access it, please. Surtsicna (talk) 07:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Surtsicna, is this it? (the actual title page seems to differ from the title quoted by archive.org). Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Or this one? Alansplodge (talk) 12:41, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

This has to be the one, since it has a section titled "Judith, fille du roi Baudouin II" on page 122.^[1]  --Lambiam 17:02, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Page 122 contains the paragraph

130. — Bulle de plomb (?), jadis appendue à un acte de 1157, conservé aux Archives de l’Ordre de l’Hôpital, à Malte, par lequel Judith concédait une vigne à l’Hôpital en échange d’une dîme sur le casal de Béthanie. Cette bulle ne nous est connue que par une reproduction de Paoli (pl. II, n^o 20).^[2]

I don't see an image. "Paoli" must refer to Sebastiano Paoli, so one of the latter's works contains a reproduction of the bulla.  --Lambiam 17:32, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Found it: Plate II, nr. 20 in Codice diplomatico del sacro militare ordine Gerosolimitano oggi di Malta, an image of a bulla inscribed on the obverse ABBATISSA JUDITTA.  --Lambiam 17:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Alansplodge and Lambiam: you are fantastic. Thank you! This is the exact reason why we have, and should continue to have, reference desks. This will be a major addition to the article about Ioveta, which I expanded today. Surtsicna (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

@Surtsicna:, just for future reference, if you're looking for a specific reference, often the best place to ask is at WP:RX. Best, Mathglot (talk) 01:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Palestinian proclamation of independence

Why did the State of Palestine proclaim independence so late, only in 1988, 41 years after the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (and formed the Palestine Liberation Organization only in 1964)? My superficial understanding is that Palestinian nationalism has been eclypsed by sort of Pan-Arabism of neighboring countries during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and later wars with Israel. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 09:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

During most of 1948, a large number of Arabs in the British Mandate territory of Palestine assumed that all or most of Palestine would naturally be annexed by whichever of the Arab states whose invading army was most militarily successful in destroying Israel, and many of them were not too upset by the idea (it could be considered a step toward pan-Arab unification). Then until 1988, when Jordan renounced any authority over the West Bank, such a declaration would have been considered hostile to Jordan. The declaration of Independence (Nov. 15) followed directly after the Jordanian renunciation (July 31). AnonMoos (talk) 10:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

P.S. The PLO was basically created by Nasser at a summit where Arab leaders were convened to plot and scheme about stealing Israel's water. The Wikipedia article is War over Water (Jordan River) (though I don't think I've heard that name before). Grassroots Palestinians had little or nothing to do with the PLO's creation -- it was more an attempt to dethrone Hajj Amin al-Husseini as the de facto Palestinian leader, while Egypt recognized that its former All-Palestine Government concept was definitely defunct, and would not be revived in its previous form... 10:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Not directly related to the original question, but the vast majority of Palestinians also had little or nothing to do with the creation of Hamas. Hamas would never have come to power in Gaza but for the incompetence and corruption of the Fatah administration. The only reason the people responded to the promises of Hamas of a clean administration was that they were thoroughly fed up with Fatah.  --Lambiam 17:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

All-Palestine Government (a client state of Egypt effectively having some control over the Gaza Strip) says (some format by me):

The All-Palestine National Council was convened in Gaza on 30 September 1948 under the chairmanship of Amin al-Husayni. The council passed a series of resolutions culminating on 1 October 1948 with a declaration of independence over the whole of Palestine, with Jerusalem as its capital.[11] Although the new government claimed jurisdiction over the whole of Palestine, it had no administration, no civil service, no money, and no real army of its own. It formally adopted the Flag of the Arab Revolt that had been used by Arab nationalists since 1917 and revived the Holy War Army with the declared aim of liberating Palestine.

--Error (talk) 01:47, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Zvi Elpeleg gives a long answer in Why Was 'Independent Palestine' Never Created in 1948?

--Error (talk) 02:27, 6 November 2023 (UTC)