Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 December 24

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December 24

What's the final line of the penultimate verse of Rudyard Kipling's "Hymn of Breaking Strain"?

The Kipling Society's website has it as "the burden of the odds", but this 1999 anthology in the Internet Archive's collection has it as "the burden or the odds". Which one's right? PhageRules1 (talk) 05:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Book sources are about equally divided; we'd need to consult the manuscript or find a source that discusses this. The reported date of first publication of the poem is 15 March 1935, in The Daily Telegraph.^[1] It appeared on the same date in a supplement to The Engineer, in which the line reads, The burden or the odds.^[2]  --Lambiam 11:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

So Shall Ye Reap: Poems for These Days by Kipling (1941 edition) also has "or" and not "of".

Rudyard Kipling's Verse (1942) goes with "or" too. Alansplodge (talk) 11:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The Sussex archive centre The Keep has a letter from Kipling to Herbert Baker of no later than 1934 that has a typed copy of the poem as an enclosure.^[3] There are ordering and viewing options, for which one needs to register for a reader account. The site also reports the publication in The Engineer as "Said to be the first appearance of the verse".^[4]  --Lambiam 11:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I have emailed the librarian to ask, and will report back. Marnanel (talk) 15:11, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

You would expect the Kipling Society to get it right and no doubt they have considered this question before. There are contact details on their website. Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I submit that they may not have considered this question before, especially if the cause of the discrepancy is a single small typo someone once made when entering text onto their website, easily missed in proofreading. We might be engaged in the first serious double check of their work, or I could be entirely wrong. Folly Mox (talk) 15:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

PhageRules1, the Kipling Society website now matches the other sources. Folly Mox (talk) 12:10, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

It would be interesting to know how it appears in Thomas Pinney's Cambridge Edition, and what Pinney says about it. Kipling often revised poems between magazine and book. DuncanHill (talk) 16:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

DuncanHill, as it happens, the email reply I received from the Kipling Society cited Pinney vol. 2 p 1454 as the authoritative source in confirming their previous version contained a typo. Folly Mox (talk) 13:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Were all the soldiers in the Force Publique African?

Were there any European soldiers in the Force Publique or were they all African? 31.124.97.149 (talk) 22:18, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The caption of the photo in the infobox reads "Force Publique soldiers on parade with their Belgian officer in the late 1940s", so evidently yes to the first alternative, unless you meant specifically NCOs and Other Ranks. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 00:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

It was common for locally raised colonial troops to have European officers. A surviving exammple of this system is the British Brigade of Gurkhas, which still has a mixture of British officers (who as part of their training are sent to Nepal to learn the language) together with Nepali officers who have risen through the ranks. [5] Alansplodge (talk) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Wrestling

In the Ancient Egypt, wrestlers were created as the Royal guard body of the Pharaon around 3000 AC. Who was that Pharaon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.220.43 (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

From our article First Dynasty of Egypt:

"The date of this period is subject to scholarly debate about the Egyptian chronology. It falls within the early Bronze Age and is variously estimated to have begun anywhere between the 34th and the 30th centuries BC. In a 2013 study based on radiocarbon dates, the accession of Hor-Aha, the second king of the First Dynasty, was placed between 3111 and 3045 BC with 68% confidence, and between 3218 and 3035 with 95% confidence. The same study placed the accession of Den, the sixth king of the dynasty, between 2928 and 2911 BC with 68% confidence, although a 2023 radiocarbon analysis placed Den's accession potentially earlier, between 3011 and 2921, within a broader window of 3104 to 2913."

So although we know the names and order of the Pharoahs of this era, and of a few other individuals, we can't be sure of exactly when each reigned or lived. What is the source of your statement about the date of the Royal bodyguard's formation? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 00:29, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

The section Wrestling § By country states that the earliest documented evidence of wrestling as a combat sport in Egypt is found on tombs, c. 2300 BCE. This contradicts the statement involving 3000 BCE. The tomb is probably the mastaba of Ptahhotep, who lived under the reign of Djedkare Isesi, the eighth and penultimate ruler of the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt in the late 25th century to mid-24th century BC, during the Old Kingdom.^[6] This has no connection to any royal guard body.  --Lambiam 13:33, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok, closed. 80.180.138.52 (talk) 09:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)