Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 November 16

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November 16

Medicare supplemental plan info sources

Anyone know where to find good info about this? It is for my mom, who is at that age. There are a lot of ads on TV but I figure they are all from hucksters and scammers. So I'm looking for something reasonably neutral. She particularly wants hearing aid coverage, and not many plans seem to have that. Thanks. 2601:648:8201:5E50:0:0:0:DD22 (talk) 03:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Abraham and Sarah relationship

From the article Wife-sister narratives in the Book of Genesis: "Gershon Hepner concludes (...) that it is plausible that the union of Abraham and Sarah was actually incestuous with Sarah being Abraham's half-sister" Is there a competing theory that Abraham was just lying again?

Also, whether it was true or not, wouldn't that make Abimelech (or Pharaoh) even angrier? I know that Pharaohs would marry their own sisters of half-sisters for their "noble blood" beliefs, but I've always thought that the rest of people weren't allowed to do that...85.51.69.5 (talk) 09:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

It's hard to say much about Hepner's theory without knowing whether he says they were half-siblings with the same mother or half-siblings with the same father (two things which can be very different in some cultures).. .AnonMoos (talk) 13:55, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why we need Hepner, and Abraham is telling the truth in Genesis 20:12. The Bible tell us Sarah's genealogy elsewhere. Our article on Sarah explains things pretty clearly. She's a half sister. They didn't share a father. And the Noachide laws didn't prohibit that level of relationship. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

A competing theory is that Abraham and Sarah are fictional characters. If a narrative in which the adventures of fictional characters are described is not explicit about certain facts in the fictional universe inhabited by the characters, one is free to imagine whatever one cares to imagine. So one may imagine that Abram was 60 years of age when he met Sarai, age 16. Or that they were twins. One may likewise imagine that Abraham said what he said not to upset his interlocutor more than he already was.  --Lambiam 15:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The text answers the question posed about the text. That's the case whether the text literally happened or not. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 16:54, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Does the text reveal whether (in the narrative) Sarah was Abraham's half-sister? If so, please give chapter and verse.  --Lambiam 18:15, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Our own article Sarah makes the claim and sources it to Genesis 20:12, which reads "And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife" (KJV). The context is Abraham explaining himself to Abimelech. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Why yes, that is what Abraham says. But the question is, is it true? You can't argue, based on this passage, that the Bible tells us that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister, and use that to conclude that in the biblical narrative Abraham is speaking the truth.  --Lambiam 04:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough on a logical level, but I don't think there is a significant school that interprets the text like this. And of course, with an invisible burning bush which sacrifices itself as its son, internal consistency is straining ones compartementalization skill, anyways. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Many (but not all) traditions hold that it was part of Abraham's lie to protect himself and Sarah. The notion was that if Sarah was called Abraham's wife, the ruler would kill him, and take her as his own. By calling her his sister under his protection, Abraham hoped to avoid such problems. Wife–sister narratives in the Book of Genesis explains as much. --Jayron32 13:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

We are obviously unclear as to what hermeneutical approach to take in answering your question. One useful thing to do might be to look at the author Gershon Hepner and his work (through WP:Library) to find something in the same mode, in opposition and specifically that 20:12 is a continuation of Abraham lying. This i have been unable to find. But there is vast commentary and the tensions in the 'lies' and 'sin' of a patriarch are difficult and generate diverse resolutions, so don't take that as an indication that such couldn't be found.

Wife–sister narratives in the Book of Genesis is a very incomplete article. Hepner in a Wikipedia sense is a "reliable source" but in an article lacking so much in content and context he is given too much prominence, so you may have been misled in the way you posted the question. Alan F. Segal in Sinning in the Hebrew Bible "The Matriarch in Peril" has a broad overview exploring different paths that might be helpful.

Setting aside 'lying' in 20:12 and more 'half-truths' throughout, that they were not brother and sister most notable are Calvin that they were cousins and E. A. Speiser Genesis that she was a wife adopted as a sister somehow based on Hurrian social practice and law. Neither seem to carry much weight and Speiser's reading has been shown to be faulty, but Segal i think allows a bit of wiggle room here.

Though far afield from Hepner, you might also be interested in:

• Niditch, Susan (2000). "The Tree Wife-Sister Tales of Genesis". A Prelude to Biblical Folklore. Abraham as a trickster
• Williams, James G. (1980). "The Beautiful and the Barren". Journal for the Study of the Old Testament. 5 (17): 107–119. (through WP:Library) which touches on the second part of your question also

fiveby(zero) 17:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

(Original poster) So apparently there are no significant people claiming that Abraham was lying in 20:12, but there are notable people claiming that the word "sister" could have another meaning in the narrative. Thank you all :-) 85.51.69.5 (talk) 10:31, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Article 131 of the Indian constitution.

Article 131 under the Indian constitution does not consider any public sector undertaking or even a Government department as a party to suit acting as on behalf of the government of India although it is a government functioning unit, and that the word "State" in this specific Article actually refers to the respective State governments of the Union of the government of India, so then Under Article 131 what all can be actually considered as party to dispute on behalf of "Government of India" and on behalf of "State government" respectively if not a public sector unit of government when a conflict arises either between a state government with the government of India or between two state governments? why can't a public sector undertaking, which is a working corporation of the government of India be considered as a party to the dispute acting as on behalf of the government of India under the Article 131? Grotesquetruth (talk) 10:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

As it says at the top, we don’t offer legal advice. Please consult a law professor. DOR (HK) (talk) 14:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

This is a question about the rationale for an article in the Constitution of India. It does not ask for advice.  --Lambiam 14:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

You may have misinterpreted the intention of the article. The original court to hear a case is a court that has jurisdiction in the case. A dispute between parties in Kerala will be heard in Kerala; it will not be heard in Uttar Pradesh, because the courts in Uttar Pradesh have no jurisdiction in Kerala. In most cases, one can appeal the original ruling to a High Court, and next file an appeal to the Supreme Court to annul the ruling of the High Court. The Supreme Court is not the original court to hear the case; it is sometimes referred to as the "Court of last resort". However, in some very special cases, the Supreme Court is the original court to hear a case. Article 131 specifies to which cases this applies; the Supreme Court has jurisdiction in the disputes covered by Article 131. Disputes between parties that are not one of the cases covered by Article 131 need to be filed with a lower court.  --Lambiam 15:05, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

It is the equivalent to Article III, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, which lays out the jurisdiction of the federal-level court system. Notable, cases where all parties to the case are local to one state are not tried at the federal level, only cases where either a) the Federal government is a party or b) where the parties are different states, or citizens of different states. Often (though not always), many Federal constitutions were modeled after parts of the U.S. Constitution; there is a likelihood, given the similarity of content and intent here, that Article 131 in India was inspired by Article 3, section 2 in the US. --Jayron32 13:41, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Nazism

• Roland Freisler: can you search some photos of him along with Hitler and other Nazi leaders (Himmler, Goebbles, etc.) and upload them on commons.wikimedia?
• Heinrich Berger: for the victim of July 20, 1944 plot, can you search for other photos (own, with his family, with Hitler or other Nazis during varios reunions) and upload them on commons.wikimedia?

Thank you very much. -- 10:35, 16 November 2022 82.52.110.64

Such photos would not necessarily automatically be copyright-free... AnonMoos (talk) 13:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

We already have some with the main leaders, although it's not easy to search Category:Adolf Hitler, but I found:

• "Nazi Hierarchy, Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, Hess" (1933 or 1934)
• Adolf Hitler und Gefolge, Martin Bormann, Rudolf Heß, Franz Ritter von Epp, Julius Schaub, Heinrich Himmler (1938)
• Berlin: Lutz Graf von Schwerin-Krosigk, Hanns Kerrl, Bernhard Rust, Philipp Bouhler, Baldur v. Schirach, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, Hermann Göring (1938)

I don't think Hitler was much of a team player and it seems that the whole gang didn't appear together too often. Alansplodge (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I read somewhere (no reference) that Hitler, after taking the power, only summoned the government at the beginning. After that, he dealt with each minister individually. He would also give different orders to each and let them compete to fulfill them in a Darwinistic way. --Error (talk) 17:40, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

And they hated each others' guts; the whole setup was disfunctional. Alansplodge (talk) 19:46, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

But there will be a photo of Freisler with Hitler or with Himmler, Goebbels, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.225.133 (talk) 17:02, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

There's this one, but it's in copyright. Alansplodge (talk) 19:42, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I've asked for a photo of Freisler with Hitler, and others for Berger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.225.133 (talk) 22:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Some photos of Hitler along with all Nazi leaders, including Freisler, can be found here: 1, 2, 3. Please, can you find them without the firm "gettyimages" in other sites and upload them? And search for others Berger's? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.20.10.213 (talk) 18:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

See Copyright law of the United States, which images on Commons have to conform to, unless specifically waived by the copyright holder. Alansplodge (talk) 11:13, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Ok, but can you find a site with those three photos without that word "gettyimages", and others for Berger? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.178.80 (talk) 17:14, 22 November 2022 (UTC)