Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 July 20
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July 20 edit
Who was Colonel Charles? edit
In 1820, Lord Thomas Cochrane, then in the employ of the Chilean Navy, allegedly sent a Lieutenant-Colonel Charles off to Saint Helena to offer Napoleon the throne of Chile. Some sources report this as fact, while our article quotes a source saying that Charles had died before the mission is said to have taken place. In any event, Napoleon was at death's door and wasn't going anywhere. So who was this Charles? Donald Serrell Thomas says that he had previously served under Sir Robert Wilson in the Egyptian campaign, but I have no other clues. Alansplodge (talk) 15:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Many of the stories about getting Napoleon out of St. Helena turned out to be apocryphal. One of the more famous was that of French-born, Philadelphia banker Stephen Girard, who according to a single unverified article from the Baltimore American tried to organize an expedition to bring Napoleon to the U.S., but the story appeared many years after the events and no confirmation of the story has ever been found, making it likely apocryphal.[1]. There was also the mythically bizarre plot to send a submarine to get Napoleon off St. Helena: [2]. I can't find much information in reliable sources on any Cochrane-led plot, though the story is out there, no Lt. Col Charles shows up in what I can find, this account from 1939 seems to place Cochrane at the forefront of the apocryphal Philadelphia plot, for example. --Jayron32 18:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- There is only one index entry in Cochrane in the Pacific (the quoted source) for a Charles, Lt Colonel James which may be wikidata:Q16302621 es:Jaime Charles (ingeniero). Escuela de Infantería de Marina del "Comandante Jaime Charles". Footnote in Miller, John (1829). Memoirs of General Miller. p. 227. Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, Loyal Lusitanian Legion in the peninsula 1808, aide to Sir Robert Wilson. fiveby(zero) 18:44, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Glover, Michael (1978) A very slippery fellow : the life of Sir Robert Wilson, 1777-1849, says that when Wilson was forming the Loyal Lusitanian Legion, "Wilson secured a Lieutenant James Charles, Royal Artillery, as his aide-de-camp, a post Charles was later to fill in Russia." Glover later notes the Charles joined Wilson in Russia in January 1813. Charles was thus present at the Battle of Lützen. Suggests that the comment above mine might be correct. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:11, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Wilson was in Egypt 1801-2, and from Donald Thomas "Chochrane had despatched a confidential messenger, Lieutenant-Colonel Charles to a very different destination. Charles had served under Sir Robert Wilson in Egypt..." Thomas, Donald Serrell (1980). Cochrane: Britannia's last sea-king. p. 263. Thomas gave the story to Cornwell for Sharpe's Devil[3]. Brian Vale looks more trustworthy but all i can see is a google snippet view. fiveby(zero) 19:37, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- "Was Lady Chochrane trying to hide the true identity of the messenger? Maybe she confused James with his brother Claudius, who had arrived in Chile...Or maybe she was referring to an earlier message." Ocampo, Emilio (2009). The emperor's last campaign. p. 379. Lady Cochrane's account is in Tute, Warren (1965). Chochrane. p. 176.. fiveby(zero) 20:10, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Wilson was in Egypt 1801-2, and from Donald Thomas "Chochrane had despatched a confidential messenger, Lieutenant-Colonel Charles to a very different destination. Charles had served under Sir Robert Wilson in Egypt..." Thomas, Donald Serrell (1980). Cochrane: Britannia's last sea-king. p. 263. Thomas gave the story to Cornwell for Sharpe's Devil[3]. Brian Vale looks more trustworthy but all i can see is a google snippet view. fiveby(zero) 19:37, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Glover, Michael (1978) A very slippery fellow : the life of Sir Robert Wilson, 1777-1849, says that when Wilson was forming the Loyal Lusitanian Legion, "Wilson secured a Lieutenant James Charles, Royal Artillery, as his aide-de-camp, a post Charles was later to fill in Russia." Glover later notes the Charles joined Wilson in Russia in January 1813. Charles was thus present at the Battle of Lützen. Suggests that the comment above mine might be correct. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:11, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- Many thanks, one and all. I have been reading Thomas's book on Cochrane, which led me to the "clarification needed" template in our article. Using his full name provided above, I found The name’s James, Charles James: a Napoleonic-era enigma, which says that James was appointed "French Secretary" to the Master of the Ordnance, which probably involved spying. According to that article, he died in England in early 1821, which makes Lady Cochrane's story even less plausible, but contradicts Brian Vale's account that he was already dead in 1820. Alansplodge (talk) 21:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)