Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 April 29
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April 29
editUS worst naval disaster?
editIf you google "US worst naval disaster", more often than not you get USS Indianapolis. But it's surely the Attack on Pearl Harbor. What gives? Ericoides (talk) 08:54, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- "Disaster" would normally be interpreted as something not intentional. An accidental explosion, a hurricane, an earthquake. An attack would not fall under this classification. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 10:27, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The worst accidental loss of ships for the US Navy was the Honda Point disaster in 1923. 194.73.48.66 (talk) 10:53, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- In terms of number of ships lost, yes, but only 23 died, compared to the over 800 that died when the Indianapolis sank. Thankfully Quint survived long enough to get Brody and Hooper out to sea to take out that shark. Farewell and adieu...--Jayron32 11:08, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- But our Attack on Pearl Harbor article has "2,335 total killed" plus 68 civilian deaths. 1,177 were killed on USS Arizona alone. Perhaps the Indianapolis sinking might be the worst disaster at sea? Alansplodge (talk) 13:48, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Furthermore, 1,168 people were killed in the 1865 Sultana explosion, which again was not at sea but on the Mississippi River. Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies User:Jayron32, I misread your post, the 23 fatalities were at Honda Point, not Pearl Harbor. Alansplodge (talk) 14:06, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- No problem. Also, when Khajidha said
"Disaster" would normally be interpreted as something not intentional. An accidental explosion, a hurricane, an earthquake. An attack would not fall under this classification.
I interpreted that to mean: "Disaster" would normally be interpreted as something not intentional. An accidental explosion, a hurricane, an earthquake. An attack would not fall under this classification. --Jayron32 14:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)- Also, as you note, it is likely the Sultana and not Indianapolis, as the Sultana article already calls it the U.S.'s worst maritime disaster. --Jayron32 14:12, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- See also List of maritime disasters and List of maritime disasters in World War II. As to why so many internet pundits believe that the Indianapolis is the worst, I have no idea. Alansplodge (talk) 14:19, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think that is likely because it is more famous; it's a compelling story and also features prominently in films such as Jaws (see my comment above). The Sultana is a bigger death toll, but also much less well known. --Jayron32 14:23, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but I would have thought Pearl Harbor was also well known in the US. The loss of the Arizona appears in our list of maritime disasters, and Indianapolis was torpedoed by a submarine, so hardly a natural occurrence. Alansplodge (talk) 16:34, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Seems to me that those shouldn't be on the list, then. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:23, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but I would have thought Pearl Harbor was also well known in the US. The loss of the Arizona appears in our list of maritime disasters, and Indianapolis was torpedoed by a submarine, so hardly a natural occurrence. Alansplodge (talk) 16:34, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Is the Sultana a maritime disaster, or a naval disaster? 24.76.103.169 (talk) 23:17, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it either. It wasn't on the ocean (or even a sea), so "maritime" wouldn't seem to apply. It wasn't a ship owned or operated by any navy, so "naval" doesn't seem right either. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:02, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- "Nautical", maybe? --Trovatore (talk) 16:32, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it either. It wasn't on the ocean (or even a sea), so "maritime" wouldn't seem to apply. It wasn't a ship owned or operated by any navy, so "naval" doesn't seem right either. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:02, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think that is likely because it is more famous; it's a compelling story and also features prominently in films such as Jaws (see my comment above). The Sultana is a bigger death toll, but also much less well known. --Jayron32 14:23, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- See also List of maritime disasters and List of maritime disasters in World War II. As to why so many internet pundits believe that the Indianapolis is the worst, I have no idea. Alansplodge (talk) 14:19, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Also, as you note, it is likely the Sultana and not Indianapolis, as the Sultana article already calls it the U.S.'s worst maritime disaster. --Jayron32 14:12, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- No problem. Also, when Khajidha said
- Apologies User:Jayron32, I misread your post, the 23 fatalities were at Honda Point, not Pearl Harbor. Alansplodge (talk) 14:06, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Furthermore, 1,168 people were killed in the 1865 Sultana explosion, which again was not at sea but on the Mississippi River. Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- But our Attack on Pearl Harbor article has "2,335 total killed" plus 68 civilian deaths. 1,177 were killed on USS Arizona alone. Perhaps the Indianapolis sinking might be the worst disaster at sea? Alansplodge (talk) 13:48, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- In terms of number of ships lost, yes, but only 23 died, compared to the over 800 that died when the Indianapolis sank. Thankfully Quint survived long enough to get Brody and Hooper out to sea to take out that shark. Farewell and adieu...--Jayron32 11:08, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- So, in short, the question is not well-defined. First you have to decide what counts as a disaster, then whether you measure "worst" in lives or some other measure. In the absence of a generally-agreed-on definition, it's not surprising to see sources disagreeing. --184.144.97.125 (talk) 17:33, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- And whether you are including losses due to active warfare. And whether you are including incidents on lakes and rivers or just seas and oceans. And do you mean "Naval", as in specific to the Navy. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- The worst accidental loss of ships for the US Navy was the Honda Point disaster in 1923. 194.73.48.66 (talk) 10:53, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- According to its article number two is the PS General Slocum, a single cigarette or match burning or drowning about a thousand picnic commuters so close to land and numerous potential rescuers, the story's a black comedy of errors. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:57, 30 April 2022 (UTC)