Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 January 7

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January 7

hope this is not a request for legal advice, asking out of curiousity

if someone has a medical condition that makes him involuntarily do something possibly illegal, under a certain set of circumstances, then if another person who is fully aware of the condition deliberately puts him under that set of circumstances, what is the law on this?

for example, if an epileptic is deliberately exposed to lights that cause a seizure and the seizure causes damage to property or injury to the person who purposely exposed him to the lights? Or if someone purposely provokes an autistic classmate into lashing out and the provoker is injured as a result? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.216.76 (talk) 03:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Deliberately and knowingly causing harm to someone else is usually a crime. If you deliberately expose an epileptic to the stimulus you know is going to cause that epileptic to have a seizure, then you're very likely guilty of assualting the epileptic or some similar crime. --Jayron32 03:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Even so, those kinds of laws likely vary state-by-state, so giving one blanket answer here is probably insufficient or misleading. I expect civil law also gets into this area, meaning that if there's no criminal remedy, there might still be a civil remedy, i.e. a lawsuit. Again, state-by-state. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe that pubs have been sued for letting somebody drive home who is obviously drunk, leading to an accident. And your case is even worse, being deliberate. StuRat (talk) 04:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

In America, such laws are often called "the dram shop act" or dram shop laws, and as the article notes, they do indeed vary from state to state. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:38, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

At Common Law, this would not be a crime, but the modern trend is to impose liability because the mens rea is present. At common law, acting without volition would negate the actus reus. With the development of the insanity defense, American courts recognized that one could suffer from a mental defect which would substantially impair a defendant’s ability to control his or her actions. This is known as the irresistible impulse test of the insanity defense. Following the attempted assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan by John Hinckley, Jr., the United States saw substantial reform for the insanity defense. Consequently, only a handful of states still permit one to claim the defense when the insanity affects the voluntariness of one’s actions but has no effect on the appreciation of the wrongfulness. I believe that these handful states would be likely candidates to exculpate the defendant in the hypothetical. Additionally, a few jurisdictions have shifted the focus of the automation defense from the actus reus to the mens rea by classifying it as a form of insanity. These jurisdictions may also grant an acquittal. There are several US jurisdictions which have addressed the specific issue above; they include: Federal (see Government of the Virgin Islands v Smith (1960, CA3 VI) 278 F2d 169)[1], California (see People v Freeman (1943) 61 Cal App 2d 110)[2], Kentucky (see Smith v Commonwealth (1954, Ky) 268 SW2d 937)[3], Oklahoma (see Carter v State (1962, Okla Crim) 376 P2d 351)[4], Kansas (see State v Massey (1987) 242 Kan 252)[5], and Wyoming (see Fulcher v State (1981, Wyo) 633 P2d 142)[6]. The Kansas case does the best job of explaining the issue, I believe; although it is one of those jurisdictions which groups automation with the mens rea rather than the actus reus as the courts did in England hundreds of years ago. I can’t speak for other common law jurisdictions, but if they have not reformed the ancient laws, they would exculpate the defendant in your example as well. The trend is to find the innocent "automoton" guilty for the act instead. Gx872op (talk) 19:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I think you missed the main point. The question is not about the responsibility of the involuntary actor, but about the person who constructs the situation to happen. As an extreme case, consider A throwing a helpless B over a balcony ("making him involuntarily" falling), hitting and injuring C. Only a perverse system of justice would assign blame to B. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:49, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

The example of throwing one off the balcony does not involve "a medical condition that makes him involuntarily do something possibly illegal." That is what the original question is about. The "point" is that the United States does not generally recognize medical conditions that make one do something "involuntarily" as exculpatory. If you have a medical condition that causes you to harm someone, you are generally criminally liable for that in the United States. In those jurisdictions, the court will not convict a person for flashing lights or sticking pins in voodoo dolls; they will convict the one who actually caused the death.Gx872op (talk) 18:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

This is a matter that would have to be determined by a judge and lawyers in a particular case. If a lawyer could prove that person A induced a condition in person B specifically to produce outcome Q (e.g. A used a device to stimulate a seizure in B so that B crashed his car at a particular time and place, which allowed A to kill a passenger in B's car), A would most likely be convicted of murder. If intention towards outcome Q can't be proved charges would be lesser, but A would still be responsible for injuries to B and any damages B caused. Most legal systems have a torturous set of precedents establishing different levels of responsibility for collateral damage (usually for random gunshots, thrown objects, out-of-control autos, campfires that get loose, etc); the court would examine the most relevant of those precedents and make a ruling that was as consistent as possible with previous rulings. --Ludwigs2 16:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

most answers focus on the person who provoked the condition. how about the legal liability for the person with the medical condition committing the involuntary act (such as the epileptic or autistic in the examples above)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.219.112 (talk) 10:36, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

In addition to the above, in general if someone takes an action they know is reasonably likely to cause harm or death, then they are guilty of negligence at the very least. The "guilty mind" component of the act of negligence comes from the fact that you knew (or a reasonable person should have known) injury was likely to result 65.29.47.55 (talk) 00:20, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• Addendum: In my opinion "legal advice" refers to someone asking "I just did this am I in trouble" or "I'm in this situation, what should I do" I don't think "legal advice" consists of asking a broad hypothetical or asking about the common-law sources and implications of an action (as you do here). If it were we couldn't have any legal articles at all practically. 65.29.47.55 (talk) 00:24, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Straddle (naked or not)

Ive been trying to understand it but am a little confused. Now when you go for a long straddle and cut the loss to the premium is that naked or covered?(Lihaas (talk) 05:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC));

I don't understand your question at all. Please clarify. StuRat (talk) 06:01, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a term "straddle (poker)" but it's hard to tell if that's what he's asking about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

This is arcane terminology relating to stock options. A straddle means either buying identical puts and calls for a certain option, or selling identical puts and calls. I don't really understand this stuff, but I believe that a long straddle is different from either a naked straddle or a covered straddle. (1) In a naked straddle, also known as a short straddle, you sell identical puts and calls. (2) In a covered straddle, you sell identical puts and calls while owning the underlying stock. (3) In a long straddle, you buy identical puts and calls. If you have any sense, though, you'll stay a mile away from any of this stuff, which is all just a bunch of fancy ways of giving all your money to a brokerage in the form of fees. Looie496 (talk) 06:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Right. We have an article on the box spread, an intricate maneuver involving four separate put and call trades. It's also called the "alligator spread" because, though you're guaranteed a modest profit, you get eaten alive by the commissions. PhGustaf (talk) 22:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks heavens for that explanation. The images that have been flashing through my mind about straddling something while naked are now better forgotten! HiLo48 (talk) 07:09, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Some thing... or some one? I certainly would not mind a long naked straddle from many of the women I know. Blueboar (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. And as for "cut a loss to the premium" ... just don't go there. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

As with the line from Tom Lehrer's "Bright College Days": Soon we'll be out amid the cold world's strife / Soon we'll be sliding down the razor blade of life... ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:19, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Gee. I'm a fan of Tom's but not familiar with that song. Excellent line. Must look it up. HiLo48 (talk) 22:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering if the long straddle is generally done naked or covered, but you seem to suggest above that its naked?

Thanks thoughLihaas (talk) 05:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Character from folklore or legend who rides a wheeled grasshopper?

I've seen an old illustration before but cannot seem to find it again, or find proper context. It depicts a tiny man dressed as a ringmaster or coachman riding a grasshopper with wheels. Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanisam (talk • contribs) 14:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

There used to be a Sunday comic called The Teenie Weenies that depicted tiny humans using all kinds of small objects in clever ways, e.g. using a thimble for a bucket or something like that. I wonder if that's what you're thinking of? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

No, it was related somehow to folklore or legend. Thanks, though!--Tanisam (talk) 02:01, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I've seen similar illustrations used to describe Queen Mab. ~~MelancholyDanish

No, he was male, wearing a top hat. --Tanisam (talk) 11:05, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

'The Garden' (Joan Miró)

Hi. I've been trying to find out more about this picture - does anyone know when it was painted, which gallery it's in, or anything like that? Any information would be appreciated. Thanks. It Is Me Here ^{t / c} 14:20, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I submitted this question to joanmiro.com, will post any response here. WikiDao ☯ 15:36, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Did a Tineye search and got this. Google translate gave the following:

Joan Miró i Ferrer (Barcelona, April 20, 1893 - Palma de Mallorca, December 25, 1983) painter, sculptor, engraver and ceramist Spanish, considered one of the leading representatives of surrealism. In his work reflected his interest in the subconscious, as "childish" and his country. In numerous interviews and writings dating from the 1930s, Miró expressed his desire to abandon conventional methods of painting in his own words "kill, murder or rape" in order to encourage a form of expression that was contemporary.

Please note I do not understand Spanish so the above info could be completely wrong. Royor (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The painting is "The Garden", by Joan Miró in 1977 (12 Portuguese) Royor (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

It is one of a series of Homages, called "Art in Boxes" to 20th century artists, by Volker Kühn and not by Miró. Yours made to order for only £970.66 here (page 20 if that isn't a direct link) meltBanana 18:31, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Well JoanMiro.com have the exact same picture as the OP in their "Joan Miro Paintings" gallery, and I also notice your link from The Berkeley Gallery is actually a Limited Edition Mixed Media Sculpture title "the garden of Joan Miró". Royor (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

JoanMiro.com is wrong. All versions of that image look like Kühn's homage and none of the homages look like exact copies of the artist's works. Also that image is clearly a pastiche of Miró's style (happy caterpillars are not his style) and I can find no substantial reference in any books or professional gallery sites to any such work from Miró, especially not from 1977. meltBanana 14:06, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I e-mailed The Berkeley Gallery and asked if Volker Kuhn's "the garden of Joan Miro" is an original or derivative work, hope they'll clear this for us. Royor (talk) 16:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I went to the library today and looked through numerous books on Miro. I did not find any reference in any of the books to a 1977 painting titled “the Garden” ,and the OP’s pic does differ significantly in style compare to some of Miro’s paintings in the 70’s (see Carolyn Lanchner, Joan Miro (p430 – 432), New York: Museum of Modern Art; Edition:(MoMA) 1993 ISBN 0870704346). I’m wrong and meltBanana is right, many apologies for the misinformation.

The picture in question is “the garden of Joan Miro” by Volker Kuhn. Royor (talk) 19:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah, OK, thanks for that! This means that pt:Joan Miró (and maybe some other ones) will need to be updated, if anyone speaks the language and so can edit the articles and leave a note on their discussion page. It Is Me Here ^{t / c} 21:38, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Worse local authority services that cost more, UK

Is it just an illusion that the council tax has been rising while local authority services have been cut back?

If not, where is the money going? I know that the various council supremos hacve been paying themselves hundred of thousands of pounds in salaries, but that cannot account for all of it. 92.24.183.6 (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Much of the funding for UK local government comes from national government sources (and ultimately, taxes etc: the Revenue Support Grant is a major part of this). This has been cut back, so the situation you describe is inevitable. Actually, the 'council supremos' are in a less easy situation than private-sector bosses when it comes to 'paying themselves' - the latter aren't subject to the same level of scrutiny.

Some useful articles on UK local government:

Local government in England,

Local government in Scotland,

Local government in Wales,

Local government in Northern Ireland,

List of articles about local government in the United Kingdom.

And no doubt the reason the national government is cutting back is that it's deep in debt. This is a feature of borrowing money; initially you have extra cash, but eventually it becomes "time to pay the piper", and then you have far less cash on hand, much less than if you had never borrowed any. This applies to national governments as well as households. StuRat (talk) 18:42, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Just pointing out that "council supremos" don't pay themselves anything. All the decisions about the pay of council officers are ultimately taken by the councillors who are democratically elected, and are negotiated with them through organisations like this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The councillors, in my experience, are uneducated and elderly. 92.15.5.241 (talk) 23:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Vote for more educated, younger ones then! (But, actually, I agree that what you say is a very big problem. Older people are usually the only ones with time to spare.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 00:08, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Add to that the fact that the vast majority of local authority spending goes on some very big areas which not many people actually use. See page 94 (no, really) of the Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2010 for the total across the UK. To summarise, of the total £137bn current spending by local authorities across the UK in 2009-10, £48.5m was spent on education, and £48.4m was spent on 'social protection' (ie social services for adults and children). That takes up 70p in every pound spent by councils. What's more, the education budget is not actually under the control of councils but is set by central government, and most social services are a statutory responsibility where the council has a legal duty to provide the service.

After that, £16.6bn is spent on policing, which councils do not control directly. It's only then that you get on to the sort of 'local authority services' which everybody uses. The £5.8bn on 'environment protection' is mostly waste collection and disposal, but is only 4% of all council spending. Now when councils have to save money, the big budgets are ringfenced or legally protected; the smaller budgets are not. So the cuts have to be made on these areas. Sam Blacketer (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I didn't view the .pdf because I don't have a pdf reader installed, but did you mean £48.5bn and £48.4bn instead of £48.5m and £48.4m? Because otherwise there's still ~100bn you didn't account for 82.44.55.25 (talk) 22:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I did. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:29, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Okay :) I'm not good at maths so I wasn't sure if there was something extremely obvious I was missing, thanks for clarifying 82.44.55.25 (talk) 23:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

List of US presidential election results by county

I have been trying to find a source that would show which presidential candidate carried each county in each election in the United States in which there has been a popular vote. This site has the information I am looking for going back to 1836, but it does not include the same information for earlier elections, and for the elections covered, the maps are often too small to read (for instance, while I can easily see who carried Pittsfield County, Massachusetts in each included election, it is impossible to tell who carried very small counties like Richmond County, NY, even if I zoom in). Does anyone know of a site that would have this information? Thanks. Interrogus (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

This site seems to have the information in both map and table form, although you need to register to access the data. If you have acess to a good public library, the World Almanac and Book of Facts used to carry that information in table form. --Xuxl (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I may have overlooked something, but it looks like that site only has the counties going back to 1960 (unless seeing counties for earlier elections is something that requires registration?) I'll try the World Almanac and Book of Facts the next time I get the chance to go to a library. Thanks! Interrogus (talk) 19:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeas, copunty-by-county information seems to be available if you register (which I haven't done). --Xuxl (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Bearing in mind that going back to certain years most counties either didnt exist or were probably districted differently with less populations et al. ocovering big areas.(Lihaas (talk) 19:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC));

In that case I would want to find the data from the counties of the time and would then just compare the old boundaries to the present boundaries (in the older states many or most of the present counties existed by the time most states had a popular vote, for instance most of the counties in New England.) Some elections are shown county-by-county on Wikipedia with the map adjusted to show the present boundaries, e.g. the 1860 election map shows Stephen Douglas as carrying Nassau County, NY (which didn't exist until nearly four decades later and in 1860 was part of Queens, which Douglas carried). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Interrogus (talk • contribs) 20:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Quote

I read a quote somewhere but I can't remember very much about where. All I remember is that it roughly expressed the sentiment that "Sometimes we fear our equals even more than our superiors, because in a fight we are uncertain of the outcome". It may or may not be in a work of a philosopher. Does anyone recognize it? Guesses are fine as long as it fits the sentiment; I need to use this as a quote but I need a source, not necessarily the same as I remember. 24.92.70.160 (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Just a blind guess, but Sun Tzu said a ton of quotable things about fear and fights. 91.85.191.212 (talk) 22:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I've spent a long time searching for it without success. But its aggressive stance suggests it could be pre-Christian, such as the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. The length and style of the writing is similar to the Meditations also. Or it could be a quote from something like Fight Club, or Machiavelli. 92.15.24.121 (talk) 14:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's Machiavelli, at least not the Prince or Discourses on Livy. I do remember a quote, I believe by Montaigne, that the greatest enemy of the best swordsman in France was not the second best swordsman in France, but the worst swordsman in France, because you don't know what he will do. Similar comments have been made by professional poker players, who refuse to play with neophytes because their lack of skill makes intelligent opposition impossible.

Games and songs from Commonwealth countries

I'm looking for a variety of games, especially singing games, from different Commonwealth countries. Does anyone know of a list, or good resource, for this? Failing that, could you link to or describe a few (in enough detail to play them!) 82.24.248.137 (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

You need to nail down "games" a bit. Do you mean games for pre-schoolers, drinking games, or something in-between ? Same for "songs". StuRat (talk) 22:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Oops, didn't think of that. Games for children, like playground games or party games, like Farmer's in his den. 86.163.214.50 (talk) 23:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I remember playing Ring a Ring o' Roses as a small child in the UK. It links to Category:Singing games, although I had thought of all those as just nursery rhymes and not singing games. There were also group skipping games but only girls played those. The game I played a lot as as a child was "tag", where someone is "it" who has to chase and touch anyone else to make them "it" instead. I see there is an article Singing game. There was also another singing game I've remembered, favoured by girls, which involved two children raising their joined raised hands like a church steeple and everyone else going conga-like underneath them. Other ones I remember playing at a party are pass the parcel and musical chairs, the latter in particular of which was a fearful ordeal and not at all fun. 92.15.24.121 (talk) 14:25, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

That list is almost identical to games played in the US; I wonder if there's much difference. StuRat (talk) 15:25, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

If you mean the list at Category: Singing Games then that list is not specific to a country. Many of them I've never heard of, so I assume they are American. 92.15.24.121 (talk) 15:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

What about hop-scotch?

although we didnt call "it" in catch-and-cook, the "it" was called the "den" now im quite confused as to why?

otherwise the ring a rin and parcel sound familiar.(Lihaas (talk) 19:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC));

Yes, I'd forgotten that some girls played hop scotch, although I do not think it was popular. 92.15.7.205 (talk) 20:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I can see I haven't asked this question clearly enough. I'm looking for a variety of different games from different Commonwealth countries. Games which are common to many countries are interesting, but not so useful to me as (for example) a specific singing game that Indian children play, or Jamaican children, or Australian children, but that is unlikely to be familiar to most children from the UK. I was assuming that any centralised list or website would include all Commonwealth countries, so wasn't so fussed about excluding the UK, but if people are just suggesting games, it would be more helpful if they weren't common UK games. 86.163.214.50 (talk) 20:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Iona and Peter Opie did a lot of research into playground games and rhymes,searching out their books might be useful. Hotclaws (talk) 20:07, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, their books, which I own, are very UK-centric. I'd like to be able to introduce children the games and singing games fro

other commonwealth countries, as a sort-of 'the same but different' exercise. 86.163.214.50 (talk) 00:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Girls in Australia and New Zealand play a skipping game called "elastics", which *might* be unique to that part of the world. Here is a youtube of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nyeSgowBo --TrogWoolley (talk) 09:02, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

London cholera, oral-fecal transmission, politics/morality

Hi,

I'm researching the legality-politics of the 1854 Cholera outbreak in London (involving Dr. John Snow and the Broad street water pump)....the relevant Wikipedia page in the section entitled "Political controversy".....says,

"After the cholera epidemic had subsided, government officials replaced the Broad Street Pump Handle. They had responded only to the urgent threat posed to the population, and afterward they rejected Snow's theory. To accept his proposal would be indirectly accepting the oral-fecal method transmission of disease, which was too unpleasant for most of the public" [There is no citation yet]

I was wondering if you could point me to any sources/literature etc. which would help make this connection that a large part of the rejection of such a theory was based on the socio-political judgment of the scientific-thesis. It would be helpful even if this source didn't directly deal with london 1854 (though, of course, some relation would be appreciated).

Please let me know. Thank you very much for this service.

SB — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asapbond (talk • contribs) 23:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Our article Miasma theory of disease is more specific and better referenced. (The miasma theory was the competing theory.) Stephen Inwood's History of London is well referenced, deals with the London cholera outbreak in detail, and would be a good place to start. There is no preview for it on Google Books but it should be in most libraries. Charles Dickens was an important figure in the public debate, and his brother Alfred did a survey on sanitary conditions in West Ham that also influenced thinking. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I strongly recommend Charles E. Rosenberg's The Cholera Years. It takes place in the United States, but it discusses a lot about why the British and American medical communities recoiled from the idea of cholera being waterborne. It covers three outbreaks in the United States: 1832, 1846, and 1866. The last one is post-Snow, but even then the Snow theory was not widely accepted. It's more than just being "unpleasant" — the alternative models stressed entirely different modes of transmission, and there were strong moral sentiments involved (cholera was seen as spreading from filthy conditions, and thus became part of various social reform platforms, as well as a "blame the victim" approach). Rosenberg directly discusses the difficulties that doctors and public health officials had with the Snow theory, if I recall, and spends a lot of time talking about the socio-political aspects. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Anatomy of the Soul

In reading Moby Dick, I've noticed that Melville speaks with fluidity about the offices and attributes of various parts of the soul, or psyche: reason, will, perceptibility, judgment, etc. And in reading Aquinas, I've noticed that he's forever making subtle distinctions between, say, the appetitive and intellectual faculties. Is there a particular writer, or philosopher, or school of knowledge, on whom these men are drawing? If Aristotle, in which of his works does he dissect the soul like this?

Thanks immensely for your help! ~~ MelancholyDanish