Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 September 27

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September 27

Body building

This question clearly belongs on the Science reference desk, so I'm moving it over there now. --Anonymous, 05:28 UTC, September 27, 2009.

Nearly topped at Little Round Top

I recall reading somewhere that Colonel Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, long after the Civil War, received a letter from a former Confederate sniper who told him he had Chamberlain in his gun sights, but Something told him not to pull the trigger. I looked at the biography of this remarkable man, but saw nothing about it in there. Is the story true, and where would I find it ? In addition it is said that General Stonewall Jackson had two wives, but only one is mentioned. Who was his first wife, and where could I find details on both of them ? Lastly, my understanding is that the famous Bible scholar C.I. Scofield, although born I believe in Wisconsin, served in the Confederate Army, and was wounded at Antietam ( Sharpsburg - Sept. 17, 1862 ). Why would he fight for the other side ? The Russian, Christopher Lilly Christopherlilly (talk) 06:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard the Chamberlain story, but obviously Strong Vincent didn't have the same experience.

Our article on Stonewall Jackson is a bit of a mess, but his first wife (mentioned under "Early Military Career") was Elinor (sometimes spelled Eleanor) Junkin. His second wife was Mary Anna Morrison. Significantly, both were daughters of Presbyterian ministers. Read more about Stonewall and his wives in Sarah Gardner's essay in Intimate strategies of the Civil War: military commanders and their wives, if you can get ahold of it.

About the third question: although the Wikipedia article doesn't mention it, Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, though born in Michigan, was apparently living in Tennesse when the Civil War began. Thus it's not very surprising that he signed up for a one-year enlistment in a Tennessee regiment. —Kevin Myers 13:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Hm. Several of my ancestors lived in Tennessee, but crossed the state line to join a Kentucky Union regiment. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

That's not very surprising either; see Tennessee in the American Civil War. —Kevin Myers 22:40, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

This game: "telling objects from a collection"

A game in my chilhood was the following. Two (or more) players choose a subject, e.g. "capitals" or "basket players", then they tell names in that category in turn; looses the one who fail to find a new name to add to the list. Do or did you use to play this game, and how do you call it? --pma (talk) 14:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Categories (game)? Vimescarrot (talk) 15:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Where can I find the transcript of the recent Larry King Ahmadinejad interview online for free?

Hello, I have a very slow Internet connection and I tried to watch the video on youtube but it was too frustratingly slow. I just want the transcript. Any help?--12.48.220.130 (talk) 21:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't see the interview and this seems pretty short to me but here is a transcript from cnn.com.

Cynical and Skeptical (talk) 22:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Muslims ruling over non-Muslims and Christians ruling over non-Christians

I've noticed that, throughout European history, Muslims who conquered a European country did not force the local Christians to convert to Islam (for example, when the Moors conquered Spain and when the Ottomans conquered the Balkans). Before the 19th century, Christian rulers were banishing, executing or forcibly converting all non-Christians in their lands and in the lands they conquered (for example, after Reconquista in Spain and during Austro-Ottoman wars). Christian rulers did the same to other Christians who didn't worship the way majority did (for example, persecution of Protestants by Catholics).

The Jews were persecuted by the Christian rulers of Portugal, Spain, Austria, Italy, etc., while they thrived in Spain during the Muslim rule and were received by the Ottoman Sultan after they were banished from Spain in 1492. Why did Muslim rulers tolerate Christians and Jews? It was as easy for them to expel them as it was for Christian rulers to expel non-Christians. Not only they tolerated, but they welcomed non-Muslims into their realms (eg. Bayezid II welcoming the Spanish Jews and threatning with death all Muslims who treated them badly) and guaranteed them freedom of religion (eg. Mehmed II's Firman). Why?

(I am aware of exceptions, but they are only exceptions.) Surtsicna (talk) 22:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Proselytizing is less important to Islam than it is to Christianity; it doesn't really matter if you haven't converted everyone to Islam. I don't think the Qur'an has an equivalent to the Bible's command to go out and preach. Muslims also had a better understanding of economics, and realized it was far more profitable to tax everyone heavily than to kill them or expel them. (One notable exception is the crusader states, of course.) Adam Bishop (talk) 23:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not accept the precursor to your argument that Christian rulers forced everyone in their empires to convert to Christianity while Muslim rulers didn't care to convert anyone to Islam. In general, Christian rulers wanted those in their country (not empire) to be Christian. At the same time, Muslim rulers wanted those in their country (not empire) to be Muslim. You are blurring the actions towards a ruler's country with the actions towards a ruler's empire - which are two very different things. -- kainaw™ 03:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I cannot research this properly, but the missing piece to this puzzle is the rate at which Muslims and non-Muslims were taxed by Muslim rulers. For many years, non-Muslims were taxed at a higher rate, which meant that having them around (even a lot of them) was perfectly fine so long as they kept quiet (and paid!). Over time this became unworkable as too many people converted to Islam (no doubt helped by the tax cut), forcing the rulers to adopt a more straightforward head tax. As I say, I do not have full access to the internet at work, but that's the avenue you need to look up. Hopefully someone can come along with a proper reference. Matt Deres (talk) 16:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The principle reason that most Islamic Nations do not require conversion, expulsion, or harassment of Christian or (less so) Jewish residents, is that the Qur'an and Islam itself is an evolution of these two religions, and the Qur'an states that Christians and Jews are "people of the book" and could live peacefully within their borders, assuming they submitted to living under Muslim rule. In the Ottoman empire, they were even allowed to employ their own tax collectors, and court systems, seperate from the Islamic ones. Note that this tolerance is not universal, and does not generally extend to other religions (for example the Bahá'í_Faith#History.

The tax in question, or at least one of them, is the Kharaj. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

See Dhimmi and People of the Book. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

So, to summarise, the answers would be: 1) Muslims knew more about economy. 2) Muslims were bound by religion to tolerate the People of the Book. Is that right? Thank you for answers! Surtsicna (talk) 22:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and you can balance the answer depending on how cynical you are. If you generally think highly of people, you can focus on the religious tolerance. On the other hand, if you're like me, you can focus on the wond'rous abilities of little round shiny bits of silver to cement friendships :). Matt Deres (talk) 23:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You may also be interested in Divisions of the world in Islam. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Many people have heard about the Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain under the Muslims and the persecution of Jews under Christians during the Middle Ages. That's all true, but it's not the entirety of history. In the 12th century, Spain was invaded by the Almohades, a fundamentalist Muslim sect that gave their new subjects the choice of conversion to Islam, death or exile. Many Jews fled to the Christian north of Spain; the expulsion of Jews from Christian Spain and the Inquisition were hundreds of years away. Not all Christian rulers were cruel to the Jews in the Medieval and Early Modern periods; they showed various degrees of toleration. Notably, in the late Medieval and Early Modern periods, the rulers of Poland were much more hospitable to the Jews than the princes of Western and Central Europe, which is why most American Jews today have ancestors who lived in areas once under Polish rule. Meanwhile, the article History of the Jews under Muslim rule gives other examples of mistreatment of Jews by Muslim rulers. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:32, 29 September 2009 (UTC)