Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2013 May 22

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May 22

cricket

Who is the best captain in world cricket_ Mahendra Singh Dhoni and Ricky Pointing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Titunsam (talk • contribs) 17:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

To quote the message at the top of the page, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate".— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Although it would be acceptable to discuss what reliable sources say about the subject in hopes of improving some article or articles here. Though I'm afraid I can't help as to me "cricket" is an insect.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

In order to answer the original question (because it surely can be answered quantitatively), I have tried to find statistics on the captaincy records of Mahendra Singh Dhoni and Ricky Ponting. Career records for batting/bowling/fielding do exist, but what I am struggling with is the win/loss record as captain for either man. I've tried Cricinfo and Statsguru to no avail. If someone can find the relevant site I'll try and answer the question. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Statsguru is THE place to get the stats, but you need to do an 'advanced search'. Ponting's results show he won 48, drew 13 and lost 16 of the 77 matches he played as captain of Australia. Dhoni won 24, drew 11 and lost 12 from his 47 as Indian captain. Therefore, Punter has a 62% win rate and 17% loss rate. MS won 51% and lost 26%. On this basis, Ricky seems the better captain. Out of interest, though, from the 18 matches played between the two captains, Australia won only 5, with 3 draws, and India taking the other 10. However, all of Australia's wins were on home turf, whilst India won only one match away from home, in Perth in June 2008. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

You can filter as captain in Statsguru on the advanced search page...

• From Ponting's Statsguru (Test cricket only): captained 77, won 48, drew 13, lost 16.
• From MS Dhoni's Statsguru (Test cricket only): captained 47, won 24, drew 11, lost 12.
• So in pure %win terms, Ponting won 62% of Test matches he captained, MS Dhoni won 51%. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh it was the Advanced Search that threw me. Actually I thought I'd done an advanced search but obviously not. Thank you for your help. The answers you've given have only partially answered the question though, which doesn't refer to just Test cricket. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) A bit more thought made me realise we should probably also look at ODIs and T20s, since certainly Dhoni's supporters would probably argue that these are just as, if not more, important than tests. So: Ricky Ponting captained Australia in 229 ODIs, winning 164 and losing 51 with 2 ties and 12 no results. That's a win rate of 72%. In T20s he was captain 17 times, won 7 and lost 10, meaning a win rate of 41%. Dhoni was captain for 135 ODIs, winning 77, losing 47, tying 3 and no result in 8. Win rate 57%. In T20s it's played 41, won 20, lost 19, tied 1, no result 1. Win rate 49%.

In head-to-heads, Ponting won 24 out of the 41 ODIs against Dhoni's India (59%), with Dhoni taking 12 (29%). In T20s, out of 7 played it's 4 to Ponting (57%) and 3 to Dhoni (43%).

Looking at the individual batting figures, we can see that, as captain, in all forms of the game, Ponting has a high score of 209, and an average of 45.34 at a strike rate of 72.36. Captaincy seems to make him a worse batsman, since in matches where he wasn't captain, he has a high score of 257, and an average of 46.49. Dhoni, meanwhile, as captain has a high score of 229, an average of 48.92 and a 75.34 strike rate. When he was not captain he high scored on 183* and averaged 38.01.

Of course, Dhoni contributes more to the team than just his batting - as 'keeper he has made 248 dismissals (stumpings and catches) in 77 tests - that's 3.2 per match. Ponting only took 196 dismissals in his 168 tests - that's 1.2 per match, and he never took more than 3 in an innings. On that basis, you'd have to say that Dhoni is the superior fielder, but then again you'd hope he would be, standing behind the stumps.

So, that's what the stats show. My personal opinion is that they bear out my general feeling on the two captains. Ponting is a supreme test batsman, although at times weighed down by his responsibilities as captain. Dhoni is probably much the better short-form batsman, but even so has occasional flashes of brilliance in tests. Nevertheless, as a test batsman I think it would be fair to categorise Dhoni as 'very good', whilst Ponting is exceptional, and probably one of the greatest batsmen of the last 20 years. As all round players, though, Dhoni's dual contributions with bat and gloves make him an attractive choice as wicket-keeper-batsman-captain, although I don't think he would be rated anywhere near the top of the list of best wicket keepers. All in all, they seem to be both equally good all-round players, both of whom would probably (in the case of Ponting, would have) walk into any of the world's test sides.

In terms of captaincy, though, I think Ponting takes it. He seems to improve his team's chances of winning any given match. He might not be a great tactical captain in the mould of Mike Brearley, but he certainly seems to do the basics well, and to get his team playing strongly together. You only need to witness the mess Australia now find themselves in, what with 'Homeworkgate' and think how little time Punter would have had for all that nonsense. Dhoni, whilst an excellent player, seems not to have the same effect on a team. He may well be the best man to captain India right now, but he doesn't seem to inspire the same level of achievement as Ponting. His captaincy seems to be solid, rather than sparkling.

All in all, I'd rate Dhoni as one of the better current international test cricket captains, probably alongside Alastair Cook and Michael Clarke, and maybe even higher as a limited overs captain, but I'd put him below Graeme Smith I think. On the other hand, I think Ponting has to be rated as one of the captaining greats. Certainly I'd put him down as Australia's best since Bradman, and probably the best captain in world cricket of recent years. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

As an Englishman that last sentence was particularly hard to write - I'm now off to rinse my mouth out with soap, sing Jerusalem until my voice is hoarse, and pray to Lord Geoffrey for forgiveness. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Apologies for just doing half a job, but I didn't have much time to address the issue in hand, but at least I got the ball rolling. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for putting in an excellent shift on this one. Well done! --TammyMoet (talk) 18:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Batting isn't part of captaincy. Nor is wicket keeping. And even though I'm Australian, I don't think Ponting was a great captain. One obvious factor hardly discussed above is the quality of the rest of the team. When Ponting started as captain he had some great players surrounding him. As they retired, his captaincy stats declined. Obviously not all his fault, but what exactly are we measuring? I didn't see him as a real leader, and not the kind of guy who could draw the best out of new team members. Better Australian captains in my lifetime would be Ian Chappell, Alan Border, Mark Taylor and, out of left field, Shane Warne. the latter's win-loss record for the times he was allowed to captain is very impressive. HiLo48 (talk) 22:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You're probably right but that wasn't the question we were asked to answer! --TammyMoet (talk) 15:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, we were asked "Who IS the best captain in world cricket?" One fact I do know is that Ponting isn't captain now, so, if you're going to be pedantic, how can we answer the question at all? HiLo48 (talk) 21:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Right, this thread is becoming a waste of time. Some of us tried to answer the OP with stats relating to success as a captain. Others had some opinions. Suggest we just move on and let this get archived as it's not proving anything other than some questions (and some respondents) here are wasting a lot of Wikipedia resources. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:04, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree, but it should probably have been closed a lot earlier. Some of us didn't just give opinions on the relative captaincy abilities. We gave opinions on the stats,, the relevance of the stats, and on the question itself. It really was unanswerable without opinions right from the start. Please don't write posts implying that you think others here aren't doing the right thing, when you were equally part of the "problem", if it exists at all. HiLo48 (talk) 22:25, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I answered which captain had won the most matches as captain, which would generally be accepted as a reasonable measure of captain's success. You added nothing. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

And I pointed out that counting wins is not a realistic measure of a someone's ability as a captain. Your response suggests that you didn't like me doing that. HiLo48 (talk) 21:52, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Is the term "Multichannel video programming distributor" used outside the United States?

I may have asked this in the wrong place.

It's a term used in U.S. law, and the Wikipedia article has no content referring to other countries.

Now I'm sure there IS a general term used outside the U.S.. I thought it was Pay television but a hatnote indicates that the Wikipedia article about that concerns premium networks and the like, not cable, satellite and other delivery systems in general.

If the specific term is not used outside the U.S. that might be a way to get that annoying tag removed.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)