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St Scholastica Day riot edit

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A forgotten footnote to a footnote in history, this riot ensured the University of Oxford held prominence over the town's authorities for several hundred years, which allowed it to develop and grow and get rich all at the same time. Any comments and suggestions are welcome. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Serialis Numerus V-IV-I-II-IX edit

Let me look properly at it tomorrow, but thanks for the invite. Off the top of my head:

  • The picture postcards from the university should probably be labelled as 19C. depictions somehow.
  • Ref #39 (Jeaffreson 1871) has a pp error.
  • Likewise Chance, Colvin, Cooper et al. needs, apparently "pagenums for book chapter".
  • Perhaps the aftermath section is the best place for a mention of the 15C poems based on the event.
  • I might have missed it, but if not, point out (background) the relevance of the saint's day itself, one of the most significant day's in the uni's calendar, her being the patron of what they did.
  • Also aftermath, the uni was still referencing its charter nearly 200 years later (to Wolsey).
  • Might be worth looking at Rait's Life in the Medieval University.
  • An interesting side effect was that Oxford suffered a dearth of drama, plays or theatre until the 16C.
    • Lovely point - Now added - SchroCat (talk) 11:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      ——SN54129 18:39, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cheers for these SN - I knew I was right to ask you and Gog, as medieval experts, to have a look at this before anyone else. The easy ones done – I've emailed you on a couple of bits. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:48, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SchroCat: replied, links etc. ——SN54129 15:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two points still to cover from this pre-FAC. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild edit

I have boldly copy edited all over; revert at will.

  • I shall do nothing of the sort: they are all excellent changes. - SchroCat (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The violence following the bar brawl" Possibly 'The violence started by the bar brawl'?
  • "University halls and students' accommodation was raided" 'were raided'? (Tim would know.)
  • "concerned murders by students" It may be worth pointing out who the victims were.
    • It's not stated in the source - it is possible that these were both townsfolk and other students, so I don't want to try and double guess the sources. - SchroCat (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the centre of the town, on the corner of St Aldate's and Queen Street, at Carfax, the Swindlestock Tavern was based; the tavern was a regular drinking spot for the students." This sentence seems misplaced. It would fit better as the second sentence of "Dispute".
  • I suggest borrowing Sn's footnote explain what a mark is. Link mark at first mention.
  • "12 of the 29 coroner's courts held between 1297 and 1322 concerned murders by the students" Yet the two examples you give just before are both murders of students.
    • Both of which pre-date the 1297 to 1322 bracket. It was an ongoing tradition between both sides. - SchroCat (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you deliberately leaving "de" uncapitalized when it starts a sentence?
    • I was (as it's part of a name); I've seen it capitalised and left in lower case, and it's probably something our MoS doesn't have a decision on. - SchroCat (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:SENTENCECAPS suggests to me that they should be capitalised. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:22, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there such a thing as an "emphasis of blame"? Outside James Bond film titles I mean.
  • "Other customers and students" The students would not also be customers then?
  • "bows and arrows, cudgels and staves" I know what you mean, but it reads a little unfortunately.
    • Switched it round - does it read better now? - SchroCat (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "any student who had rented rooms ... was killed or maimed" I doubt that. Maybe. 'any student who was found in their rented rooms ... '?

A quick run through. I will try and have a proper go through later. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:10, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Excellent: many thanks for these, and I look forward to any further comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Further thoughts edit
coroner's court
baptism
honorary
freeman
vice-chancellor
excommunicated
cudgels
staves
proclamation - at first mention
master
tonsure
privies
cesspits
penny
  • "attend a mass for those killed at the University Church of St Mary the Virgin" Switch "for those killed" to the end of the phrase to avoid ambiguity.

Excellent stuff. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:48, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for these - now duly attended to here. - SchroCat (talk) 11:15, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim edit

I say! It sounds like the Athenaeum on Boat Race Night. A few comments:

  • Lead
    • "The students became quarrelsome with the taverner, which quickly escalated to blows" – this doesn't quite work. What is the which? You could do a lot worse than judicious repetition here – a standard rhetorical device since Aristotle's time – "The students became quarrelsome with the taverner; the quarrel quickly escalated to blows…" but there are plenty of other ways to make the sentence grammatically OK.
    • "resulting melee" – the OED hasn't given the noun a full English passport so far and insists on mêlée.
    • "armed gangs coming in from the countryside to assist the townspeople" – assist sounds a touch genteel in this context. Perhaps "reinforce" or some such?
    • "Violent disagreements between residents and students" – here and throughout I'm not entirely comfortable with "residents" to label the townspeople. The students resided in the town too, and so were just as much "residents".
    • "12 of the 29 coroner's courts" – I don't swear to it but I think this should be coroners' with the possessive apostrophe after the ess. (At a pinch I could argue a case for coroner's – each coroner had a coroner's court and there were 29 of them – but I don't think that quite holds water.)
    • "The University of Cambridge was established in 1209" – perfectly true, no doubt, but the date didn't oughter be in the lead if it isn't in the main text, which it isn't.
  • Background
    • You might link "plague" perhaps.
    • "deeply affected by the event" – I'd be inclined to omit the last three words.
  • Dispute
    • "The tavern … the inn" – I am unfamiliar with places where alcohol is consumed, as you know, and others like me may wonder what is the difference between a tavern and an inn and why both terms are used in the one sentence.
    • "the university, who were given additional powers" – not sure about a plural verb for "the university". The university authorities, possibly?
    • "de Croydon refused" – does one leave a "de" like this in lower case when it is at the start of a sentence? I'm not 100% sure but I think I'd begin a sentence, e.g. "De Gaulle was President…" not "de Gaulle was President".
    • "any student who was found in their rented rooms" – there being no female students the politically correct singular "their" is unnecessary and "his" is unimpeachable.
  • Resolution
    • "When each new mayor or sheriff was sworn in, they had to swear to uphold all the university's rights." – another otiose PC pronoun. These personages were all men, and so "he" is wanted here.
    • Tim, shouldn't this be a "they" for plural? If you think singular is best, then yes, it will be "he". - SchroCat (talk) 15:40, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • "each" and "or" both require a singular, and indeed you have very properly used "was", so it should be a singular pronoun, i.e. "he"

That's all from me. An invigorating article, which I look forward to seeing at FAC. – Tim riley talk 14:42, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks! I'll get onto these shortly. Pip pip - SchroCat (talk) 15:40, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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