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Sleaford

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Sleaford is a market town in the English county of Lincolnshire, with a population of over 17,000 people and a history dating back to the Iron Age. When I started working on the article back in September 2014, it was 37,000 bytes long, had 44 citations and its structure and prose were inconsistent; I've largely rewritten it and it's now over 130,000 bytes long with more than 300 references. I do believe it's complete in its scope at least, and I now feel it is time to put it up for review. My aim would be to get this to FA and I am looking for any constructive feedback which might help me to get it there.

Many thanks, Noswall59 (talk) 15:39, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment The opening sentence is rather confusing as Lincolnshire as a ceremonial county spans the East Midlands and Yorkshire and the Humber regions. Keith D (talk) 17:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Keith D:I didn't realise that. I've changed it to the non-metropolitan county, which I believe is (entirely) in the East Midlands. Many thanks Keith, --Noswall59 (talk) 20:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Comments from Rodw This is an impressive article. I know it can be a challenge to find sources etc for local history on towns in England. A few comments:

Lead

  • "ceremonial county" could be wikilinked to Ceremonial counties of England for non-UK readers
    • As above for Keith's comment.
  • Iron Age could be wikilinked (as could Roman & Anglo-Saxon) or do we assume these are well known enough for readers not to need to find out more from the relevant article? I note Bronze Age and other periods are wikilinked later in the article)
    • Wikilinked
  • I think Bishop of Lincoln should definitely be wikilinked
    • Done
  • I'm not a grammar expert but "which grew the fastest of any town in the county during the 1990s" didn't read clearly for me.
    • "which underwent the fast growth..."?
      • perhaps "...underwent the fastest growth..."— Rod talk 20:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Okay, I've tweaked it.

Geography

Topography
  • Civil Parish could be linked to Civil parishes in England and I'm not sure it should be capitalised.
    • Done
  • North East and South East shouldn't be capitalised (per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Compass points)
    • Done
  • You've told us about the soil but what is the underlying geology?
    • Okay, I will take a look at this - I am not a geographer, but I will have a look at what sort of info is included in other articles.
      • For the records, I have now added information on the underlying geology. —Noswall59 (talk) 14:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC).[reply]
Climate
  • Does Cavendish = Cavendish, Suffolk?
    • The Met Office source doesn't specify, but I assume so and therefore have changed accordingly.
  • Is " hail the size of golf balls were reported in Sleaford and other parts of central Lincolnshire" supported by refs 7-9 at the end of the paragraph
    • Yes, in the Met Office source under the "Rainfall" tab: "In Lincolnshire on 25 August 2001 there were reports of hail the size of golf balls at Sleaford, Coningsby and Spilsby in the south of the county causing damage to aircraft, cars and greenhouses."
  • Capitalisation of West and North (as above)
    • Done

History

Etymology
  • Any particular reason for using the informal "Testa de Nevill" rather than "Book of Fees" or "Liber feodorum"?
    • Done
      • You have it linking to Book of Fees but the text shows as Testa de Nevill, I just wondered why?— Rod talk 20:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sorry, I meant to correct that too, done now.
Early
  • The word "area" is used a lot in the first two sentences.
    • I have replaced one with vicinity and then referred back to it later.
  • Should "Bourne" be Bourne, Lincolnshire? (wikilinked later)
    • Yes, I have wikilinked it and removed the later wikilink
  • In the lead River Slea is wikilinked and capitalised but not here. "river Slea" is used and capitalised on 2nd use.
  • The last sentence of the first paragraph (from While only... ) seems very long - although I can't see anything with the grammar I would chop it into two (or three) sentences.
    • Done, and tweaked the wording a bit too.
  • Capitalisation of East
    • Done
Medieval (I think wp prefers the term Middle Ages)
    • Corrected
  • Saxons & "within two centuries" in the previous sentence we have "c. 5th century–1066" so can we be more specific about which two centuries? Is the 8th & 9th mentioned later?
    • I don't have the original source on me right now, but I believe it meant that, within 200 years of the Romans departing, the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have been in Sleaford, i.e. by the 6th-7th centuries, when the burial ground was uncovered. I will check the sources later to check, but I have amended it for now.
  • Would it be worth linking watermill?
    • I suppose it won't hurt, done.
  • Should it be "Britano-Roman" or "Romano-British"?
    • Changed to the latter.
  • St Denys' Church, Sleaford should be wikilinked
    • Done.
  • Is a new town "planted" (or constructed or similar)?
    • I do believe Beresford used the term "planted", but I have changed - I think he used it more in the sense of "a planted town" rather than as a verb.
  • "and was the manor held by the bishop in 1086" something about the grammar but I'm not sure what
    • How about "and identifies it as the manor held by the bishop in 1086"?
      • Better I think.— Rod talk 20:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Burgage should be wikilinked
    • Done
  • Should "demesne" be capitalised - both upper & lower case in the same sentence
    • It's not capitalised in its own article, so I've changed to lower case.
  • I have a concept of a wapentake as a Hundred but others may not.
  • Is Flaxwell a term/place which would be recognised today?
    • It is the name of the wapentake ([1]) and not a village or other settlement. If I asked most people today, they probably wouldn't recognise it. I gather that it isn't convention for Hundreds to have articles either.
Early modern
  • I see Edward Clinton, 1st Earl of Lincoln is wikilinked in the note but I would do this in the text to prevent potential confusion with Lord Edward Clinton or the various other Lord Clintons.
    • Done.
  • Would the grammar school mentioned be Carre's Grammar School?
    • Yes, should I change it? (It is covered in the "Education section")
      • I would clarify on 1st use.— Rod talk 20:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done.
  • I see Carr baronets is mentioned and wikilinked but previously we had Carre family - I presume they are part of the same family (and lost the "E" over the years) but this is unclear.
    • Yes, Carre and Carr seem interchangeable, so I have added it in parentheses.
  • Cogglesford Mill should be wikilinked
    • Done.
  • Who is Simon Pawney, is this a historian we should recognise?
    • He is a local historian who has researched the town's history ([2]). He seems to have a PhD in Historical Studies from Leicester University ([3]) and I gathered is a fairly reliable source.
      • Might be worth adding "local historian Simon Pawney" or similar.— Rod talk 20:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done.
  • "From the Middle Ages down to then, Sleaford had been surrounded by three main open fields: North, West and Sleaford Fields." not sure what "then" refers to and capitalisation (are these capitalised as proper names of fields or directions?).
    • They are the names of the fields; removed "then".
  • Was it North or South Rauceby and should it be wikilinked?
    • The source doesn't make this clear.

If these sorts of comments are helpful I'll come back and take a look at the rest of the article.— Rod talk 18:16, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rodw: Thank you very much Rod, these comments have certainly been helpful. I think it's easy to miss so many things when I've been working on it on and off for a few months, and it is very beneficial to have a fresh set of eyes look over it. Any further comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, --Noswall59 (talk) 20:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A few more comments

History

Industrial
  • Should "Bass & Co" link to Bass Brewery & maltings to Malt house or at least make the point that this was for beer production?
    • Links added.
  • "listed" could link to listed building as non-UK readers are unlikely to know the term
    • Done.
  • Is the Thomas Parry mentioned Thomas Parry (Boston MP)?
    • Yes, link added.
  • Poor Law Union could be wikilinked & should it be capitalised?
    • Linked, and it appears to be a proper noun (e.g. [4])
Post-industrial

Administration

Politics
Local government
  • Again I would suggest chronological (and in subsequent sub sections)
    • Done, though the other two in the section are not written in the same way; public services focuses on civilian services and healthcare, then links with the armed forces; public utilities has water, and then energy.
  • Sanitary district could be linked
    • Done.

Economy

Employment

Demographics

  • I'm not sure about starting a sentence with "Statistically"...
    • Done. Though, I think I added that because of the connotations with "predominant" in this context.
  • What is the difference between "White British" in one sentence and "White English/Welsh/Scottish/British" in the next
    • That was what it was listed as in the Census data, but I think it is best summarised as White British - what do you think?

Religion

Demographics
  • should the terms "Conformist" and "Papist" be explained or wikilinked?
    • Wikilinked.
  • Do Weslyans "spring up"?
    • "The Weslyans met in Westgate" instead.
  • NEW - just noticed you have two sub heads called "Demographics" one here and one above - could another term be found for one of them?— Rod talk 08:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Parish and ecclesiastical history
  • Presumably parish in this context is an Ecclesiastical parish?
    • Yes, wikilinked an expanded.
  • Are vicars "instituted"
    • I believe so. The source uses that phrase ([5]), and it seems that the Diocese of London do as well ([6]). Is there a better term?
      • OK if that is what it is called. I know Boships are "enthroned" but hadn't heard "instituted" in this context.— Rod talk 08:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again St Denys' Church, Sleaford could be linked here
    • Done.
  • I presume "Commonwealth" should be Commonwealth of England?
    • Done, and dates added.
Places of worskip
  • The sentence that starts "The Weslyans were a break-away ..." defeats me
    • Oh dear. Is it better now?
      • Yep a good copyeditor might offer a different wording
      • Better but still so many colons & semicolons etc - I've been accused of writing "run-on" sentences. I would split it with some full stops (but as I said I'm not a grammar expert).— Rod talk 08:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Okay, I have replaced the semi-colon with a full stop, thus splitting the sentence.

Education

Nursery and primary education
  • Here we have "roughly 201 children" previously uncertainty was indicated by "c."
    • Replaced with Circa template.
Secondary education
  • "selective secondary school" is twice linked to Grammar school
    • Okay, I checked and both are grammar schools (see [7]). I've called them both grammars and removed the second link.
  • Is "post-war period" post 1st or 2nd war?
    • The second, which I think is the standard usage for the term. I've changed to "from the 1940s to the 1960s", which covers the period of expansion.
  • Should "academy" link to Academy (English school)?
    • Done.
  • Sixth Form might need linking for non-UK readers
    • Done.
      • The article you've linked to does not use capitals for "sixth form".— Rod talk 08:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will look at the rest (and respond to queries above) later or tomorrow but here are a few more to consider.— Rod talk 20:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rodw: Thanks again for getting back to me. I think I've corrected all of these things, or commented where appropriate. Best wishes, --Noswall59 (talk) 23:31, 18 January 2015 (UTC).[reply]
@Noswall59:Some more strike-through and some comments above (1 new in education). I will try to finsih looking at the rest of the article later today.— Rod talk 08:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And some more comments

Education

Further and higher education
  • I don't see any mention of higher education (perhaps change the sub head title)
    • Done.

Culture

Arts and heritage
  • Again we have "roughly" (with c. elsewhere)
    • Done.
  • Is the 90,000 figure in one of the citations?
    • Yes, in the Sleaford Standard article.
  • Has the museum opened yet as it says " planned to open in January 2015"
    • Not to my knowledge and I can't find a source saying it has opened (it was being worked on in October though [8])
Sport
  • Can you give a citation for the claim "Boston Road Recreation Ground, where facilities for the club were poor" (and Brian Rowland)?
    • It's in the first citation for that paragraph - the "History" section on the club's website.
      • I've reused the ref as a comment like this often gets challenged.— Rod talk 15:00, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2014, the club roughly 600 members" grammar
    • Corrected.
  • Should Marquess of Bristol be wikilinked here?
    • Done.

Historic buildings and architectural history

  • Are all the claims in the first paragraph supported by refs 278-281? It might be useful to clarify which ref relates to which building.
    • Pevsner gives an overview. I've made it clear what the Pawney source is used for; the other two should be apparent from their titles ("Town's former magistrates' court to be turned into snooker hall" Lincolnshire Echo 26 May 2010 and "Drinking Fountain, Market Place, Sleaford (HER number 64719)" Heritage Gateway).
  • Would "H.E. Kendall" be Henry Edward Kendall?
    • Yes, I've linked him, but all of the sources I've used say H.E. Kendall. I have found a journal article discussing sessions house in depth, but I wonder if this might be source-overload? (It is David Brock "The Competition for the Design of Sleaford Sessions House, 1828" Architectural History 27 pp. 344-355 [9])
  • "Gothic style" could be linked to Gothic architecture
    • Done.
  • "The southern side" southern side of what - are we still talking about the market place?
    • Yes, clarified.
  • We have "Carre's Hospital" here and "Carre Hospital" in note 4 - consistency between them would be good - is ti worth mentioning that this was built on the site of the house of the Carre family (see here)?
    • Changed to Carre's Hospital
  • "Along Eastgate is Carre's Hospital, built in the early 19th century, in Gothic, also by Kendall; its chapel has a large perpendicular window over-looking a courtyard." grammar but not sure what.
    • Tweaked - okay now?
  • The second paragraph has lots of claims which could do with individual citations
    • Which parts specifically? Everything before the first citation is covered by that citation, and the only thing in the next group not covered by Pevsner is Money's Mill, which is cited too.
      • Each claim eg the council offices were built in 1850s, Alvey School (1850s), the mill operated until 1895 etc.— Rod talk 15:00, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pevsner could be linked to Nikolaus Pevsner on 1st use (I see you do this on 2nd mention)
    • Done

Notable Sleafordians

  • Is "religious controversialist" a common phrase?
    • Probably not, but it's how he's described in the ODNB. I can link it to Wiktionary if necessary.
  • "couching cataracts" is not a phrase I'm familiar with
    • It's an ancient treatment, but not one that is used anymore. I have wikilinked it.
      • Thanks I've learnt something new.— Rod talk 15:00, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should George Bass be included as he is on the Aswarby article (a seperate entity to Sleaford)
    • I had wondered this myself. I have removed him, given that he's covered at Aswarby.
  • You could use a pic of one of the famous faces to illustrate this section.

References

  • Should ref 5 (NFU) have an accessed date
    • It is a publication not a webpage. I can add one if you'd like...
  • Ref 13 - accessdate (I would also shorten the title)
    • Done.
  • Ref 58 & 59, 62, 67 etc think we are supposed to add the date it was archived
    • All of these have been corrected. I will look for more.
  • Ref 63 could be done as a note
    • Done.
  • Ref 81, 118, 120 I think we are supposed to give both date of publication & date accessed
    • Okay, then I will need to go over all the news articles.
  • Ref 144 do we need a publisher (I know Hansard but others might not) particularly as formatted differently at 219 & 220
    • Changed 144 to match formatting in the other two. Also, linked Hansard.
  • Ref 206 is a 15 year old version needed as the next one is recent
    • Yes, because it makes reference to the fact that the school was constructed for 120 pupils.
  • Ref 245 has an "&" I see it is in the original however I have been told to change this to "and" elsewhere
    • Done.
  • Refs 272, 273 & 275 have web links for stories from the Sleaford Standard but 274, 276 do not - any reason?
    • Fixed one, the is not available online.
  • Refs 275 & 277 appear to be duplicates
    • Fixed.
  • I think with ONDB (Refs 299, 300, 303, 304, 305, 307, 308 etc we are supposed to include "subscription required" or similar in the ref template
    • Fixed.
  • The formatting of Ref 318 doesn't seem right (dates etc are included in link)
    • Fixed.
  • North Kestervan Council web site (eg ref 159) is giving me a server timeout error message but this may be temporary
    • It's working fine for me at the moment.
      • Working for me now as well.— Rod talk 15:00, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • As you are using the same book etc with different pages several times you may want to investigate Template:Sfn or similar to make this easier for the reader
    • I will take a look at that.

General comments

edit
  • There is a significant amount of duplication between the sections, but I'm not sure what could be done on this as it all seems to fit together logically.
    • Okay, do you feel it could prevent the article from reaching GA/FA?

I'm sure GA & FA reviewers will find loads more but I hope the comments above are useful in helping you develop the article.— Rod talk 10:46, 19 January 2015 (UTC) @Rodw:. Once again, thank you for this. I have corrected most of these points, but it may take me a bit longer to go through all the references and potentially use the template too. Do you think that, once I've addressed these issues, it would be worth trying FA? Many thanks, --Noswall59 (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC).[reply]

I always go for GA first - the reviewers often spot issues (more then I have found above) and it is a good step on the way. If you have never nominated anything at FA it can be daunting (and some of the reviewers will challenge incredible things which you had never thought of), but I wish you luck with it and well done for all the work you have put into it so far.— Rod talk 15:00, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not much to add, but I feel that some of the material in the lead sections, e.g. the etymology, would be better discussed in the history section. I'm afraid my one personal visit to Sleaford was not an exciting one, but this article does provide some interesting information, that would have probably enhanced it.-MacRùsgail (talk) 16:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for taking a look. I have removed the etymology info from the lead. Best wishes, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:17, 2 February 2015 (UTC).[reply]
  • Comment

Can I suggest that Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements provides an excellent template for the structure of such an article? I wrote (with much help) about my home town and its neighbours and this is the structure used for all. Its just some cut and pasting and tweaking really. J3Mrs (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi J3Mrs, thanks for pointing me to this— I will take a look. I've never written about a place before, so this all helps. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 13:24, 4 February 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Closing: I have close the page as nominator. Many thanks to everyone who commented,—Noswall59 (talk) 17:14, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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