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Ralph Vaughan Williams edit

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Not quite leaving the best till last, but half a dozen English composers have already gone through peer review on their way to FA, and here at last is one of the greatest. All comments on content, balance, prose and anything else will be gratefully received. Tim riley talk 17:43, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • Why no photos? Would not a photo of him taken before 1923 and scanned from a biography comply with Wikipedia rules?
    • A timely reminder: thank you! I have been working offline on this article for so long that I had forgotten two passable photographs and one excellent one published pre-1923 that I had squirreled away. All three now uploaded and added. – Tim riley talk 11:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a reason you describe him as an English composer rather than a British one? You say below that he broke with 19C British composers - and later that he was part Welsh.
  • "rid it of Teutonic influences" sounds POV to me.
  • Half of para 3 is devoted to genres where he was less successful, and the ballet the only work named.. I think it would be best to concentrate on the works he is better known for.
  • In view of his devotion to his first wife, it does not seem to me balanced to only mention the second one in the lead.
  • No change needed but it is amazing the extent of the Wedgwood-Darwin connection.
  • Are the birth and death dates of his parents known?
  • "Sara Wager, who instilled in them not only polite manners and good behaviour but also radical social and philosophical opinions. How was he radical?.
  • Charterhouse - I would mention that it is a public school.
  • "he clashed vigorously with his modern-minded pupil" You do not seem to have explained in what respect he was modern minded.
  • "the only salaried post Vaughan Williams ever had was as a church organist and choirmaster" Did he have a private income or did he earn enough from his writing and music for his apparently comfortable (financially) life?
  • More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • All addressed, I hope satisfactorily, with the exception of "English" composer. I think I'd prefer to leave this and see what other reviewers think – assuming there are other reviewers, of course. VW was a good deal less Welsh than Delius was German or Sullivan Irish, both of whom are labelled "English" in their WP articles – and VW's music in particular is often thought of as the embodiment of Englishness (a mixed blessing, and rather a restricted view of his oeuvre, but there it is). There are some bullseyes in your points, above, for which I am most grateful. – Tim riley talk 13:04, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dorking was within reasonably convenient reach of town." A bit wordy. I would delete "reasonably".
    • Hmm. It's not that convenient, and RVW chafed a bit at being out in the sticks. I'll try and find a smoother way of putting it, but "convenient" on its own won't quite do. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "remained in print for decades" Is it known how long?
  • "led many critics to imagine the symphony to be programmatic" I was not sure at first what this meant. Could it be linked to Program music?
  • "In 1942 Ursula was widowed; her husband died suddenly of heart failure." Perhaps "In 1942 Ursula's husband died suddenly of heart failure" would be simpler.
  • "the war-torn French landscape in a Corot-like sunset". What is a Corot-like sunset?
    • Quote removed and its gist given in paraphrase. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kennedy calls attempts to give the word "a meretricious programme […] a poor compliment to its musical vitality and self-sufficiency. Is word a typo for work?
  • " it is on the one hand not wholly symphonic and on the other not programmatic enough" It is my ignorance but I do not understand this. Was he saying that if it was not symphonic it must programmatic?
  • " listed some of his favourite sources:" Sources is an odd word in the context. How about "writers and writings"?
    • I dithered over this, and your suggestion is much better. Now adopted. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why no link for Whitman? He does not appear to be linked earlier.
    • I am surprised the old rogue isn't linked earlier, but he isn't, and he is now linked here. Tim riley talk 15:21, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Between the mid-1890s and the late 1950s Vaughan Williams set more than eighty poems for voice and piano accompaniment" What is his earliest work to survive?
  • " Many composers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries wrote sentimental works for female voice; songs like "The Vagabond" from Songs of Travel, to words by Robert Louis Stevenson, are "a particularly masculine breath of fresh air" (Fuller)" I took The Vagabond at first to be one of the sentimental works, but from the praise I assume not. This could be clearer.
  • "His two best known hymn tunes, both from c. 1905, are "Down Ampney" (to the words "Come Down, O Love Divine") and "Sine nomine" ("For All the Saints")." It is a matter of taste, but I would delete the brackets.
    • Not sure about this, but done, pro tem, though I may recant. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The former include Toward the Unknown Region to words by Whitman (1904–06), Five Tudor Portraits, words by John Skelton (1935)," As the writers were dead by then, I assume the dates are for the music not the words, but the wording is ambiguous.
    • Amplified the first, which I think will carry the meaning across to the second. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Composers of the generation after Vaughan Williams reacted against his style, which became unfashionable in influential musical circles in the 1960s" What were they reacting against and how was their music different?
    • Added. (I have tried not to say that tunes were out and arid soullessness was in, but it's true. No longer true, thank Goodness!) Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why only the top half of the Fawke statue?
    • This one struck me as the best facially of the photos of the statue, and though I don't wish to denigrate VW's legs I think the face is the main thing here. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No images of his wives?
    • I wish! Alas, I can't find any that would stand an earthly at FAC/image review. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No children - this should be stated. Is it known whether that was by choice?
    • Done. I have seen nothing to say whether the childlessness was by accident or design. Ursula had an abortion in the 1930s but it is not clear whether the father was Col Wood or RVW and so I have not thought it right to mention the matter. Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another first rate article. All these points are minor. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:18, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dudley, I am exceedingly grateful for your detailed review, which helps even more than perhaps you imagine. My own contributions to your PRs pale by comparison. Thank you so much! Tim riley talk 15:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From Dr. Blofeld edit

Will look at it this evening. At quick glance it looks the usual superlative work.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Vaughan Williams was born to a well-to-do family with strong moral views and a progressive social outlook. " -perhaps squeeze in birth place here?
  • Is it possible you could give some more examples of his works in the lede?
  • "The young Vaughan Williams showed early signs of musical talent; in 1878, when he was five, his aunt Sophy Wedgwood gave him his first piano lessons. In the same year he composed his first piece of music, a four-bar piano piece called "The Robin's Nest"." I think you could shuffle the order here. "showed early signs of musical talent; in 1878, when he was five, his aunt Sophy Wedgwood gave him his first piano lessons." -that's not showing musical talent, that's starting lessons. Something like "In 1878, at the age of five, Vaughan Williams began receiving piano lessons from his aunt, Sophy Wedgwood. He displayed signs of musical talent early on, composing his first piece of music, a four-bar piano piece called "The Robin's Nest", in the same year".
  • "What one really learns from an Academy or College is not so much from one's official teachers as from one's fellow-students ... [we discussed] every subject under the sun from the lowest note of the double bassoon to the philosophy of Jude the Obscure. -missing quotation mark at the end?
  • In the Other orchestral music section, why is Bartok linked again?
    • All very much to the point and all acted on. Thank you, Doctor. Tim riley talk 19:57, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Looks in excellent shape.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton edit

I've read through the "Life" and "Honours" sections, skipping over the Music which I'll tackle later. It's a fine article: all my points are essentially quibbles:

Lead
  • Nitpicking, I know, but re: "with strong moral views and progressive social outlook", I think an a is needed before "progressive"
  • "best-known British symphonists, known for..." seems a trifle clumsy
Early years
  • Isn't the book On the Origin of Species? That's what my copy says, anyway.
    • Undeniably true. I piped it because it struck me as looking pedantic, but on second thought, what the Hell! Now unpiped. Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His views on religion did not affect his love of the Authorised Version of the Bible, the beauty of which remained "one of his essential companions through life," in the words of Ursula Vaughan Williams in her 1964 biography of the composer." I suggest a slightly better format would be: "His views on religion did not affect his love of the Authorised Version of the Bible, the beauty of which, in the words of Ursula Vaughan Williams in her 1964 biography of the composer, remained "one of his essential companions through life".
Early career
  • £50 a year for a full time post? Even for 1895 that seems miserly. Scrooge paid Bob Cratchit £39 a year, and that was in 1840. I suspect that VW's church post was not eight hours a day, six days a week, and he obviously got plenty of time off, e.g. several months in Berlin.
    • Phew! Glad you homed in on this. Nowhere do my sources say "full-time". I can't think why I conjured the phrase up. Now removed. Mind you, it leaves the question (no answer from any source I have seen) what his teaching post at the RCM was if not salaried, but my source is definite that this organist position was his only salaried job. Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1901 Vaughan Williams received the degree of Doctor of Music from Cambridge". As he was only 29 and had no reputation at this stage, this can't have been an honorary doctorate. So I presume he did something – composed a piece, offered a thesis? Any idea what?
    • "Obtainable by competitive examination" as the Fairy Queen says in Iolanthe (a work well known to RVW.) I've added that info. Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Inter-war years
  • Do we need "had" in the first phrase?
    • Removed, a touch reluctantly. The "had" seemed to me appropriate for the sake of chronology. Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was the Dorking House called "The White Gates" or just "White Gates"? If the former, "The" needs a capital, if the latter, "the" is redundant. Either way the name would be best in inverted commas.
  • After his anti-war cantata Dona nobis pacem in 1936 he did not complete another major work until late in 1941" – that depends what you mean by "major work". If you simply mean "long", fair enough, but in terms of impact, surely the 1938 Serenade to Music qualifies? You describe it later as one of VW's finest works.
    • One of my three or four favourite of all, you're right! Redrawn. Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1939–52
  • "Proms" should be linked on first mention
Second marriage and last years
  • Link "pro bono publico"
  • The mention of Sinfonia Antartica should include that it was, or became kmown as, the seventh symphony. Otherwise, the reader may wonder what happened to the seventh.
Honours and legacy
  • "Vaughan Williams declined a knighthood, and turned down the offer of the post of Master of the King's Music after Elgar's death." I think this information should be in the chronological account of his life. Also, can you clarify when he refused the knighthood? It reads as though this was at the time of Elgar's death – is that so?
    • I think I'd rather leave this where it is, as the sources don't say when he was offered the K, and so it would be tricky to decide where in the Life section to mention it. It seems to have come up more than once, but it is all maddeningly vague. I've tweaked the prose to make it clear that it is unclear. Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on music in a day or two. Brianboulton (talk) 16:51, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Music

A few brief thoughts:

  • Punc: not sure about the mdash in the second line.
  • Stray apostrophe before The Lark Ascending
  • "By contrast, in the ferocity of the Fourth and Sixth Symphonies and the Concerto for Two Pianos: "in his grimmer moods Vaughan Williams can be as frightening as Sibelius and Bartók" – this needs attention. The basic problem is "in the ferocity" followed quickly by "in his grimmer moods"
  • Can the Sea Symphony really be described as "more completely choral" than Mahler's Eighth?
  • You give the year for the Sea Symphony but not for the London or Pastoral
  • I believe the brief vocal passages in Sinfonia antartica are wordless
    • In the CD liner notes of my copy of the Boult EMI recording Kennedy refers to "a small wordless women's chorus", making me wonder how many small wordless women there are in choral circles. Hush!
  • Does the Ursula quote need the initial "From..."?
    • I think so, as the "to" later would be orphaned without it. Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning the cantata In Windsor Forest – about 20 minutes of music based on the last act of Sir John in Love, often performed as a work on its own? Very pleasant it is, too.

That is me done. Excellent work, entirely readable and informative. Brianboulton (talk) 00:10, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hearty thanks: better fielding is never seen even at Lords. I have enjoyed writing the article, and this PR is turning out to be no less enjoyable from my point of view. Blessings upon you! Tim riley talk 16:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Wehwalt edit

Having to do this one piecemeal I am afraid. It seems excellent so far. Specifics:

Lede
  • The final sentence of the first paragraph, while excellently written, is a bit unclear about whether the break with the German tradition was something peculiar to Vaughan Williams (of whom I have heard, and probably listened to some of his works on the radio at some point, but I don't think I have ever gone to hear performed) or a broader trend in British music.
  • His date of birth is not sourced in the article. I suppose it is not controversial, but nevertheless.
    • I never put refs in leads unless someone has a knife to my neck, and I don't much want to repeat the d.o.b. in the text as a perch for a ref. I'm inclined to leave it uncited. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • All paragraphs begin with his name. I would certainly play with the final one, which could be cast to fit the rather dramatic tone I feel in the lede. Perhaps "Two episodes in his personal life deeply influenced him".
  • "Twenty years after the war, despite his own long and otherwise devoted marriage, a love affair with a much younger woman—later his second wife—reinvigorated him in his sixties." In his sixties feels a bit loosely attached to the tail end. Perhaps "Twenty years later, though in his sixties and devotedly married, he was reinvigorated by a love affair with a much younger woman, whom he later wed."
  • "continued to be" You do not mention any particular success in his lifetime, leaving aside Job.
Early years
  • "vicar" and "the Church" might need links for us untutored heathen types.
RCM etc
  • You may wish to include a mention of Ursula's relationship at first mention.
    • Not quite with you on this. Did you mean to write "Adeline's"? Even so, not sure what you think I should add. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as few other students dared to do." I would strike "other"
  • "self-critical" and "chief critic" the near repetition might be avoided by changing the latter, as "chief critic" can be taken as hostile in American English and may cause confusion.
Early etc
  • How did he receive the doctor of music degree? Paid for with a few guineas?
    • By no means. A series of examinations! Now clarified. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "vanished as old oral traditions died out." I would strike either oral or old. My thought would be "oral" but I could see either point of view.
    • Good point. I've blitzed "old" on the grounds that new traditions would be a bit unlikely.
Ravel etc
  • "The degree to which the French composer influenced the Englishman's style is debated" Isn't this somewhat duplicative of what follows?
    • Recast: much the same words, but tweaked to address the point. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very grateful thanks to Dudley, Brian and Wehwalt for comments, above, which I look forward to going through in detail once I'm back from temporary Cumbrian exile and among my books at Riley Towers at the weekend. Tim riley talk 19:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure the weather is delightful at this time of year. Second tranche:

On and off! The Lakes didn't get much fuller while I was there, at any rate. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ravel etc.
  • "French composer influenced the Englishman's" perhaps instead of "the Englishman's" " his student's"
    • But we have an adjacent "student"; I think I'll leave this one as drawn. Besides, I quite like the Frenchman/Englishman apposition. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Interwar years
  • "led many critics to imagine the symphony to be programmatic." You do not link programmatic here, but rather on the third use. I will admit that in the competition "word used five times or more in an article I'd most like to play at Scrabble" this at least makes the semi-finals.
    • I know what you mean, but I think I have to keep mentioning the absolute-v-programmatic music point, which the sources raise continually. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "imagine" may not have the nuance you are looking for to American readers.
Symphonies
  • "has written" "wrote" is perhaps simpler and less handing-down-stone-tablets-from-On-High.
    • I get into a Hell of a tangle with "writes" and "wrote" etc (do I mean "historic present?"). Changed, anyway. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Schwarz finds it striking " present tense seems a bit different from your normal practice.
Ditto. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • " pre-echo the early works of Stravinsky which were soon to follow" ooh, poetry.
    • I cannot deny it! But I can't think of a more everyday phrase to convey the same thing. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "meretricious" possibly a link here.
    • Meretricious and a Happy New Year!" (Is that from Groucho?) Done. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Choral
  • "both from c. 1905" I would avoid the c. with words.
Good advice. Done. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I hope to have this and other promises completed sometime this weekend.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:55, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Marvellously useful comments! Please don't rush for the rest, though. I am in no haste at all. Tim riley talk 17:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And the finale
  • I find the comma after the title and year of Sir John in Love a bit of a slowdown. Possibly the first two sentences could be usefully merged, and the info about it being based on the Bard placed immediately after the title.
  • I wonder if Sullivan would agree that the music he did with Gilbert was his vein ... (no action particularly required)
    • If only I could find the wonderful review that said the piece is like Gilbert and Sullivan - if Sullivan had written the words and Gilbert the music! Tim riley talk 15:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "falls between two stools" in view of the pan, I wonder if some may view this as an attempt at humour ...
  • "Vaughan Williams's most successful opera" critically or £sd?
  • "of the Sinfonia antartica in the lamenting voices of the women and the sound of the sea.[158]" I would insert an "in" before "sound", I think that makes it a bit more effective, though it hardly needs my help to be so.
Recordings
  • Any videos of the operas?
    • Not that I can find, but I'll have a last-minute re-rummage before going to FAC. Tim riley talk 15:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Footnotes
  • I enjoy your footnotes greatly, especially since George MacDonald Fraser no longer gives us his Flashman footnotes, but possibly the direction to Dorking may be a bit much. I think the link adequate, and the reader has many online maps available if they are interested.
    • Thank you for the comment on my notes. One sometimes wonders if they are useful to the reader, and it's nice to get good feedback. I've blitzed the one you suggested blitzing. Tim riley talk 15:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
External links.
  • Some better organisation of them might be useful. I wonder if the Heffer one is needed, it seems to be just a source you are not using.
    • Done. I hadn't. to be honest, looked at the links, and had left them untouched from the previous versions of the page. Now pruned and reordered. Tim riley talk 15:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Very engaging work and I am sure it will have no trouble at FAC (please notify me). Sorry for the delay but it is a distracting time.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:44, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much indeed for your full and helpful input. The article emerges in noticeably better shape than it was before going into PR. Tim riley talk 15:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat edit

A more complete review to follow shortly, but footnote 25 stands out for me, as it's from "Who Was doctorate Who"? I never knew you for a Whovian! – SchroCat (talk) 10:05, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the very first episode and have dipped in from time to time since, but how he got in here is beyond me. Now exterminated. Tim riley talk 14:36, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Inter-war years
  • "From then until Adeline's death in 1951 and their subsequent marriage they conducted a discreet love affair" and "The composer's concern for his first wife never faltered, according to his second, and Ursula admitted": I had to read this section a couple of times (and the first sentence three times) before I realised that RVW married Ursula. I may just be more thick than usual (entirely probable) but it could possibly be tweaked slightly for the duffers amongst us...
    • I was never quite confident about my wording here. Shall ponder on how to streamline without repeating the names too often. Tim riley talk 14:36, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very thin pickings from the biography section; I'll return shortly to do the second half. – SchroCat (talk) 12:12, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Music
  • "in Kennedy's view, being unsubtle at times.[81] His music is often described as visionary" Kennedy's music?
  • ";''Sea'', ''London'' and ''Pastoral'' Symphonies (1910–1922)" The semi-colon makes this a false title (NikkiMaria has slapped my wrist for using them before) and this should be a level four sub title instead, as should the other similarly formatted sub titles that follow.
  • The "A London Symphony" paragraph: "'absolute' music";[97] There..." I presume the semi colon there should be a full stop?

That's all from me. An excellent and informative read, as always. Please drop me a note when you go to FAC with this. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 08:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All your points now acted on. Thank you very much for your input. I'll certainly knock on your door at FAC time. Tim riley talk 09:25, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cliftonian thoughts edit

Please excuse my taking so long to get over here to look in. I know this composer a bit better than the others I've had the pleasure to read about recently. Excellent work, from first glance, I can barely think of anything to add to what has already been said above. I'll do my best to nitpick nevertheless...

  • We say in the lead that "Vaughan Williams was born in Gloucestershire to a well-to-do family with strong moral views and a progressive social outlook." This seems to imply that he was brought up and imparted with these views there, but looking down to the body we see that he actually moved away from Gloucestershire when he was a toddler and presumably became aware of these things when he was living in Surrey.
  • "In September 1883, like his brother before him" who was his brother? we haven't introduced him beyond saying there was another son in the family.
  • "The music Vaughan Williams wrote for the BBC to celebrate the end of the war, Thanksgiving for Victory, was praised for the composer's characteristic avoidance of "any suggestion of rhetorical pompousness"." praised by who?
  • Debussy, Sibelius, Prokofieff, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Mozart and Verdi aren't wikilinked.
  • in note 11 I think we want "repeatedly" rather than "repeated" (or to lose the word "used")
  • We describe Scott of the Antarctic first as a 1948 film, then later as a 1947 one.
  • "large scale" hyphenate, perhaps
  • "21st-century musicians who have acknowledged Vaughan Williams's influence" I believe one isn't supposed to start a sentence with a numeral?
  • An excellent ending.

This article, particularly the second half, "Music", is really wonderfully written, and clearly marks this out as a Tim riley work. I'll be happy to support at FAC when the time comes. Thank you, Tim, for this latest piece of education. I hope these quibbles help along the way. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  20:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All these points are excellent, and I've acted on them. Thank you very much, Cliftonian. Tim riley talk 21:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Closing peer review edit

Many thanks to everyone who contributed to the above, exceptionally thorough and helpful peer review. On to FAC next. Tim riley talk 11:55, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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