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Wikipedia:Peer review/Murder of Yvonne Fletcher/archive1

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Murder of Yvonne Fletcher edit

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Yvonne Fletcher was a bright and popular young police officer who was shot in the back by a gunman firing from a first floor window of the Libyan embassy in London. It marked the start of an eleven-day siege, six Britons being held hostage in Tripoli for nine months and a break in diplomatic relations between the UK and Libya that lasted until 1999. The police investigation has never closed, and they have strong suspicions on the identify of the gunmen and the co-conspirators, some of their evidence can not be released in court because of national security. It's a shabby story for Fletcher's family, who have never been able to see Yvonne's killer brought to justice. This article has been over-hauled recently and—unless reviewers advise otherwise—a further review at FAC is an option after PR. All constructive comments are welcome. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Nikkimaria edit

  • Suggest either scaling up the St. James Square map, or repeating the legend in the caption
  • File:WPC_Yvonne_Fletcher_shortly_after_being_shot.jpg: the fair-use tag presently used is meant for artworks rather than news photos. If there is critical commentary on this specific photo {{non-free historic image}} could be used, otherwise it should use the generic non-free tag
  • File:Muammar_gaddafi.jpg: given the logo this seems unlikely to be own work. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:50, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • OK, I'll swap out and tag at Commons.
      • Source link for the replacement is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, replaced again - source looks OK on this one. - SchroCat (talk) 15:37, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks very much for going over these - I always find licensing a problem and like to sort out problems as early as possible. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:07, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review from SNUGGUMS edit

Hopefully this helps. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:57, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Eddie891 edit

Well... Here goes.

  • "was fatally shot in the back by gunfire from the Libyan embassy on St James's Square, London." This makes it sound like the gunfire is doing the shooting. Consider rephrase as "was fatally shot in the back by an unknown gunman in the the Libyan embassy on St James's Square, London." or something similar
  • "bombs and shootings" I'd say you mean "bombings and shootings"
  • "Between 1980 and 1984 Gaddafi had ordered the deaths of several exiled opponents of his regime; bombs and shootings occurred in Manchester and London, targeted at Libyan dissidents." consider rephrasing as "Between 1980 and 1984 Gaddafi had ordered the deaths of several exiled opponents of his regime. Bombs and shootings targeted at Libyan dissidents had occurred in Manchester and London."
    • Partially done - I've tweaked the order of text you suggest, but left it with the semi-colon. - SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The inquest into Fletcher's death reached a verdict that she was" perhaps rephrase as " The inquest into Fletcher's death reached the conclusion that she was" or "The inquest into Fletcher's death came to the conclusion that she was" or "The inquest into Fletcher's death decided that she was"
    • Slightly different from a Coroner's statement or decision, this was determined by a jury who came to a verdict. - SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The findings of the inquest were later challenged in a documentary on Channel 4 television." perhaps rephrase as "The findings of the inquest were later challenged in a documentary that aired on Channel 4 television."
    • I've gone with broadcast rather than aired. - SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Libya arrested six British nationals, the last four of whom were released after nine months in captivity." What about the other two?
    • As it's in the lead, I'll let that one go - the relevant section has the full info (unless others also raise the point, in which case I'll address it accordingly). - SchroCat (talk) 10:26, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "British police continued their investigation through until 2017." Remove the through.
  • I strongly suggest removing WPC in the first sub-section, as it is a dated term that-at least to me means nothing without searching for it.
  • "the entry age into the Metropolitan Police Service." perhaps rephrase as "the minimum entry age into the Metropolitan Police Service."
  • " London newsagents that sold newspapers critical of Gaddafi." perhaps rephrase as "the homes of London newsagents that sold newspapers critical of Gaddafi."
  • "and that criminal actions in the United Kingdom must cease"." I'd change to "and that criminal actions in the United Kingdom must cease."
  • "Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964." add of to "Diplomatic Privileges Act of 1964."
    • The MoS bids us go with the former, I think - SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were executed at public hangings at the University of Tripoli." perhaps rephrase as "were executed in public hangings at the University of Tripoli."
  • "and asked that it be banned." not sure banned is the right word here. perhaps "stopped" or "halted".
  • "photographers from the People's Bureaus could not record their identities" Are there multiple People's Bureaus? or is that just a typo?
  • "filmed by several international television crew which" perhaps change to "filmed by several international television crews which"
  • "At 10:18 am" per MOS:TIME, suggest replacing with "10:18{{nbsp}}a.m." and similarly in other times mentioned
    • I have a nbsp in them already, and the MoS has both "am" and "a.m." as acceptable. - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • per WP:UNIT "In non-scientific articles relating to the United Kingdom, the primary units for most quantities are metric or other internationally used units," I'd change all measurements to metric first.
    • The sources are all in imperial measurements, and for the integrity of the conversion amounts I've kept them that way. - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she lay in the road outside the People's Bureau, she advised her colleagues to "Keep calm". She was moved to Charles II Street; she became unconscious and stopped breathing and a colleague gave her resuscitation. At 10:40 am an ambulance took her to Westminster Hospital. As she was being transferred from the ambulance to a hospital trolley, a single spent round of ammunition fell from her uniform. She was operated on, but died at approximately midday." Lots of she's in quick succession.
  • "Britain told the Libyan government that diplomatic ties were broken; " Could we not replace told with something more refined. It's OK, but just makes me feel that it is treating Britain as a person, not a State. Perhaps "Informed" or something similar.
  • "The Libyans were put on a flight just before 8:00 pm." Petty, I know, but perhaps mention where the flight went to.

That's about it. Overall, a very good article. G'Day. Eddie891 Talk Work 22:37, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Eddie891. Mostly done, with a couple more still to do. If you have any more, they will be most gratefully received. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • And thanks also for the second batch - mostly done, with one outstanding for when I have time to redraft it properly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley edit

Once again you bring us a tragic narrative, and I think you have done it full justice. Getting the tone right cannot have been easy. I have only a few minor drafting points.

  • Lead
    • There is a clunky false title in the last paragraph. It would be better to say something like, "the decision by the British Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, to…". (Some would prefer lower case "prime minister", but I know capitalisation of such job titles is a very grey area.)
  • Background
    • The first para makes much of YF's ineligibility to join the police because of her height, but in the next para she is, without explanation, eligible and accepted. Did the rules change?
This remains unexplained at present, and I doubt if I shall be the only reviewer to notice it. Tim riley talk 09:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oops - meant to say that I needed to go back to the sources on that one. Checked in the interim, and none give any indication as to why the Met bent their rules to look at her. I've tweaked to cover the point, which now reads "Despite the height restriction, in March 1977 Fletcher was accepted..." - SchroCat (talk) 10:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relations between Britain and Libya
    • "had given orders for several of them to be murdered. On his orders" – repetition of "orders". Perhaps "instructions" the second time?
  • Shooting: 16–17 April 1984
    • Not sure why the unusual form "protestor" is preferred to the normal "protester", here and at one later occurrence.
  • Siege: 18 – 27 April 1984
    • "although there were also sensitive to Libya's behaviour" – "there" is possibly meant to be "they"
    • "whereby they would arrest" – "they" being the Libyan régime: I don't think you can apply the plural pronoun to the whole country.
      • Tweaked to put "the regime" instead - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gaddafi regime: 1985–2011
    • "did not try to re-open diplomatic relations with Libya for several years, and relations remained poor" – The repetition of "relations" isn't ideal, though I can't think of a perfect alternative. Perhaps "restore diplomatic ties" the first time? A bit journalistic, I admit. If you prefer to stick with the present wording I shall not object.
      • How about "and interaction between the two governments remained poor"? Not my most elegant piece or prose, but then government interaction never is - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • To my mind, the fatuous mischief-making by Channel 4 is given far too many words. I think you could boil the present 289 words down to two or three sentences. The Libyans later admitted they did it, for goodness' sake!
Later: on rereading, I think mention of this meretricious and discredited concoction should not only be drastically pruned but also relegated in toto to a footnote. It is unworthy of a place in the main narrative. Tim riley talk 23:09, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone with your first option and dropped much of the detail to a footnote and retained the remainder. If others raise the point here or at FAC I'll trim further and drop it all to the FN. (The previous version gave us 690 words in its own special section, which was way too much weight). - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legacy
    • "the director Michael Winner" – perhaps clarify that MW was a film director
    • "After receiving significant donations" – I always counsel against "significant" unless it is clear what is signified. It is too good a word to be used loosely as a synonym for "important" or "substantial"
    • "The memorial, which consists of a granite and Portland stone commemorative pillar" – I wonder if the sentence might be tightened by the omission of "which consists of"
    • "the Bishop of Salisbury" – I think I'd be inclined to link to the incumbent rather than to the office.
  • Notes
    • "Oleg Gordievsky ... was informed" – given the murkiness of the secret intelligence business, I might make this a bit less definite: something on the lines of "said that he had been informed..."

That's all from me. Please ping me when you go to FAC. Tim riley talk 22:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks, Tim, I'm much obliged as always. - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good. One point (second one in my batch) still unaddressed, though. Tim riley talk 09:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Everything now in good order, as far as I'm concerned. Looking forward to supporting at FAC. Tim riley talk 10:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

John edit

  • "In 1991 the Lockerbie bombing further damaged British–Libyan relations." But Pan Am Flight 103 was in December 1988. --John (talk) 07:19, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from KJP1 edit

Beginning a read through and will add comments as I go. It looks very strong. KJP1 (talk) 09:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • "On 17 April 1984 Yvonne Fletcher, a Metropolitan Police officer, was fatally shot in the back from the Libyan embassy on St James's Square, London by an unknown gunman." - I find this a little confusing. It is the "in the back" and "fatally shot" bits which I find problematic. Perhaps, "On 17 April 1984 Yvonne Fletcher, a Metropolitan Police officer, was fatally wounded by a shot fired from the Libyan embassy on St James's Square, London by an unknown gunman."
  • "a documentary broadcast on Channel 4 television" - given the discussion above about the, now discredited, documentary, does it still warrant a mention in the lead?
  • "Two years after Fletcher's murder, the events..." - is it not "the event", namely Fletcher's murder?
  • "some of the evidence could not be released in court because of national security." - Perhaps, "some of the evidence could not be released into court due to national security concerns."
  • "As at 2017 no-one has been convicted for Fletcher's murder." - Perhaps, "As at 2018 no-one has been convicted of Fletcher's murder."

Background

Relations between Britain and Libya
  • "From 1979 there had been no Libyan ambassador appointed to the United Kingdom" - Given that Gaddafi had been in power since 1969, I wonder if a little explanation is needed as to why the change in diplomatic representation was made. Perhaps a footnote linking to Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and explaining that it was as a result of Gaddafi's "Declaration of the Establishment of the People's Authority"?
  • "the bourgeois habits of several of the People's Bureaux, particularly the office in London." - Can the bureaux themselves have "bourgeois habits"? Perhaps, "the bourgeois habits of staff at several of the People's Bureaux, particularly those attached to the office in London."
Vienna convention and diplomatic protection
  • "It was put into UK law in the Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964" - Perhaps, "It was incorporated into UK law in the Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964".

Shooting: 16–17 April 1984

  • "Libyan dissidents in Britain—members of the Libyan National Salvation Front (LNSF)—decided to stage a demonstration outside the People's Bureau on St James's Square in response." - For flow, I'd probably flip the "in response" to "In response Libyan dissidents in Britain—members of the Libyan National Salvation Front (LNSF)—decided to stage a demonstration outside the People's Bureau on St James's Square."
  • "to complain about the forthcoming demonstration, and asked that it be stopped" - "to complain about the forthcoming demonstration, and ask that it be stopped"?
  • "showed banners and placards" - perhaps, "carried banners and placards"?
  • References 26/27 - these have puzzling little tags that read 'Event occurs at 5:45–6:05' and 'Event occurs at 6:20–6:55'. I got confused as we are at 10.18 am in the events being described. Are these the timings of the programmes?
    • Yes, According to the MoS, that's the way the refs to audio visual material should be shown. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she advised her colleagues to "Keep calm"" - perhaps, to avoid repetition as her colleagues are mentioned earlier in the sentence, "she advised them to "Keep calm"". Also, does the K of "Keep calm" needed capitalisation and does the quote need a cite?
  • "armed police took position facing the People's Bureau and on surrounding rooftops" - perhaps "armed police took up positions facing the People's Bureau and on the surrounding rooftops"?
  • "The garage entrance at the rear of the People's Bureau was not sealed off until at least ten minutes after the shooting, and some of those inside exited the premises in that time" - as the significance is the failure to seal that exit, perhaps, "The garage entrance at the rear of the People's Bureau was not sealed off until at least ten minutes after the shooting, and some of those inside exited the premises through the garage in that time"?
  • "... Geoffrey Howe, the Foreign Secretary, in China, responsibility for handling the crisis fell to Leon Brittan, the Home Secretary" - I don't know what the Bevins article actually says, but why would responsibility have gone to Howe, had he been in the UK? It was a domestic security incident, albeit with a clear foreign policy aspect, and I would have thought it would have been a Home Office responsibility, wherever the Foreign Secretary might have been. Whitelaw had responsibility, as HS, for the Iranian Embassy siege.
    • There are a few of sources that have raised Howe's name in this respect, which is why it was included. It may have depend on Thatcher's view of the relative merits of the two men, but none of them clarify the point sufficiently. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The post-mortem was undertaken in the evening of 17 April" - given we've had two intervening paragraphs, perhaps, "The post-mortem on the body of Yvonne Fletcher was undertaken in the evening of 17 April"?

Siege: 18 – 27 April 1984

  • Nothing here. Moving on.

Aftermath: 27 April 1984 – 5 February 1985

  • "Terry Waite—the Archbishop of Canterbury's special envoy—visited Libya in an attempt to negotiate the men's release" - given that two had already been freed, perhaps, "Terry Waite—the Archbishop of Canterbury's special envoy—visited Libya in an attempt to negotiate the release of the remaining men"?
  • "The four remaining hostages were released after nine months in detention, on 5 February 1985." Following on from the above, to avoid repetition of "remaining" and "released" perhaps, "The four hostages were freed after nine months in detention, on 5 February 1985."

Subsequent developments

Gaddafi regime: 1985–2011
  • "In 1986 Thatcher agreed to the use of Royal Air Force bases for use by American aircraft involved in the bombing of Libya" - don't think you need the double "use" and suggest just, "In 1986 Thatcher agreed to the use of Royal Air Force bases by American aircraft involved in the bombing of Libya".
  • "In 1991 the Lockerbie bombing further damaged British–Libyan relations" - I think the editor above has a point. You could either change it, or make clear the further souring of relations came after the first, lengthy, investigation when Libyan involvement was clearer. What's the actual wording in Black's article?
  • "The Dispatches documentary by the Channel 4 programme" - "by the Channel 4 television station"?
  • "Ghanem said that Libya had made the admission and paid compensation to bring peace and an end to international sanctions" - I don't get "bring peace"? We weren't at war.
  • "Although they were able to undertake some steps during their four-day investigation" - am unclear as to what the "steps" were. Interviews?
    • The sources don't clarify, and the police never said too much about what practical steps they were undertaking (which is understandable). - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "British detectives were able to interview their main suspect for in June 2007 following the normalisation of political ties with the country" - "for" what? The killing/murder? And perhaps, "the normalisation of diplomatic relations between the UK and Libya"?
  • "witnesses who had observed him firing the weapon from the embassy window" - "a weapon" or are we talking about a specific gun?
  • "to face charges of conspiracy to cause death." - I don't think conspiracy to cause death is a charge, "to face charges of conspiracy to murder." Not suggesting the link's essential.
  • "Both had escaped out of many the back door of the embassy" - the "many"s a hangover from something and I think it's the "garage" door referred to previously.
  • "In a letter to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, the Police Federation said they were "appalled and disgusted" by the decision." - Does the Federation quote have a source? Is it Cite 80?
Post-Gaddafi era: 2011–2017
  • "Abdulqadir al-Baghdadi, had been killed in in-fighting amongst Gaddafi loyalists" - perhaps, to avoid the "in in-", "Abdulqadir al-Baghdadi, had been killed during in-fighting amongst Gaddafi loyalists"?

Legacy

  • "After receiving sizeable donations, Winner set up the Police Memorial Trust on 3 May to set up memorials to honour all British police officers killed in the line of duty". - Perhaps to avoid the double "set up", "After receiving sizeable donations, Winner set up the Police Memorial Trust on 3 May to erect memorials to honour all British police officers killed in the line of duty"?

That's my lot. For consideration, but not necessarily for action. Fascinating, and as well written as ever. Look forward to seeing it at FAC. KJP1 (talk) 11:43, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks KJP1. I still have one point to address, and there are a couple of replies to your questions above too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil edit

Have made some light edits, but overall this is gripping stuff. I see it has received detailed and insightful review above and the benefit is evident on the page. Can only *just* about remember the affair, and this was a pleasure to read. Look forward to its eventual appearance at FAC. Ceoil (talk) 22:56, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Ceoil - and thanks also for your copy edits, which have strengthened the article. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comments from BB edit

Very competently researched and written. It has been thoroughly reviewd here, and I have only a few additional comments:

  • "From 1979 there had been no Libyan ambassador appointed to the United Kingdom, but instead a "Revolutionary Committee" was in control; the Libyan embassy in London, at 5 St James's Square, was renamed the 'People's Bureau' ". Not entirely clear as written; I suggest a slight alteration, thus: "From 1979 there had been no Libyan ambassador appointed to the United Kingdom. A "Revolutionary Committee" was in control of the country; the Libyan embassy in London, at 5 St James's Square, was renamed the 'People's Bureau' ".
  • "On 18 April, Miles was allowed the leave the British embassy to meet representatives of the Libyan government..." – something syntactically amiss there.
  • "In 1991 the warrants issued to two Libyan men for the Lockerbie bombing further damaged British–Libyan relations" – I'd say "1988 Lockerbie bombings"

Excellent work. Brianboulton (talk) 22:03, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Brian. Your input is always welcome. Your changes all now done. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:52, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks to all who have commented. Your help has been most gratefully received. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:52, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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