Wikipedia:Peer review/List of Chinese monarchs/archive1

List of Chinese monarchs

Myself and Tintero21 have now entirely rewritten/reformatted this article—loosely modeled on Ichthyovenator's fantastic work in the List of Roman emperors—adding nearly 1000 new citations, extra life details, an an introductory lead, and hugely improved accessibility and readability. Existing lists of Chinese rulers are either in difficult to access Chinese publications (see the Further reading section), difficult to read old English publications ([1]) or have very little and/or incomplete content (an [2]), so this list seems crucial to the general population's access to such information.

We are looking for feedback to improve the content, formatting and accuracy of this list. No one should feel pressured to review the entire thing; comments on specific sections or elements are most welcome. I'd also like to invite some knowledgeable editors in this topic area who I feel could provide insight: @LlywelynII, White whirlwind, Kanguole, and Nlu:

Thanks, Aza24 (talk) 02:43, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Borsoka

An impressive work!

• What is a regnal name in Ancient China? The link is not helpful and the lead does not explain it (the lead refers only to posthumous name and temple name).
  • Linked removed – for Xia they are just known by certain names via tradition
• Why are only the emperors' fathers mentioned and their mothers are ignored?
  • The succession box simply explains what familial relation (if any) made their accession possible. Almost always this was the father, though sometimes women were crucial for a ruler's accession such as Wu Zetian (which is why she is mentioned in two succession boxes of the "Tang and Zhou dynasties" section).
• ...early Chinese monarchs have been ground into the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors Perhaps "early Chinese monarchs have been ground into the concept of Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors"
  • Changed to your suggestion
• Why are the capitals not linked?
  • I think the modern locations of most of them are uncertain, but I'll try to check
• Considered a poor king, either due to tyranny or incompetence. Sorry, I do not understand how a tyrannus can be impoverished. Considered by whom?
  • "poor" in this case refers to him being "ineffective", but to avoid possible confusion I've simply changed it to "ineffective". Considered by tradition (also specified now)
• Introduce Han Zhuo as a mythical hero.
  • Done
• Introduce the Jiuyan.
  • Done
• Could you write an introductory sentence for the Shang dynasty?
• Could you explain why some of the rulers (like Zi Lu, Zi) had two posthumous names?
• Considered a noble and virtuous ruler By whom?
• Not listed in the oracle bones inscriptions Could you explain (perhaps in a footnote) the relevance of oracle bones inscriptions? Link oracle bone (and delink at Wu Ding). When Wo Ding/Qiang Ding is mentioned you explains that the lack of a reference to him in the oracle bones inscriptions implies that Wo Ding/Qiang Ding did not rule. Why do not you mention this when listing Zhong Ren?
• Said to have had a particularly long reign; one source records 75 years. By whom? Which source?
• May have succeeded Yong Ji So may he have been Tai Wu's/Da Wu's predecessor or co-ruler?
• Moved the capital to Xiang (相) ... That an emperor moved the capital from Ji to Xiayi, from Xiayi to Zhenxun, etc is not mentioned when listing earlier emperors. Does it imply that not the emperors moved the capitals from one place to another?
• ...engaged in military campaigns Against whom? Or does this statement suggests that previous emperors were not engaged in military campaigns?
• Reformed the ritual and calendar systems Links?
• His reign accelerated the dynasty's decline There is no previous reference to the dynasty's decline.
• Was Fu Hao "the" or "a" military general?
• Moved the capital from Bi (庇) to Yan (奄) That an emperor moved the capital from Ji to Xiayi, from Xiayi to Zhenxun, etc is not mentioned when listing earlier emperors.
• Against Yiqu or against the Yiqu? Perhaps the "state/realm of Yiqu"
• Perhaps "the Predynastic Zhou state"?
• Introduce Ji Fa.
• Why are not capitals listed under Zhou dynasty?
• Most of his reign was controlled by the Duke of Zhou Introduce the Duke as the emperor's uncle. I assume China was ruled during most of his reign by Duke of Zhou - in what capacity?
• His accession established Zhou primogeniture. His father was his grandfather's son.
• Was Mu Zhao's son?
• Introduce Xiao.
• ...after which Quanrong him and overran the capital Rephrase and introduce Qanrong. Name the capital.
• Moved the capital to Luoyang From where? Consider mentioning that the period is known as "Eastern Zhou" as a consequence of the moving of the capital from west to east.
• Royal court's authority began declining We are informed in the previous line that the Battle of Xuge accelerated the decline of the dynasty's power.
• Briefly reigned as the Duke Huan led the Qi to surpass the Zhou in power Delete "Briefly reigned as". Perhaps "the state of Qi". Is this a reference to a war between Qi and Eastern Zhou?
• Who was Xiang's brother? Why is he not listed among the Chinese monarchs?
• Briefly reigned (Qing) Delete.
• Increasing fighting between surrounding kingdoms and Continued fighting of surrounding kingdoms Was Eastern Zhou involved in the wars or was an island of peace?
• Weakened relations with surrounding kingdoms I do not understand. We are not informed that Eastern Zhou had strong relations with surrounding kingdoms.
• Ruled for less than a year before being Delete.
  • Simplified
• Killed by a rival king Who?
  • Clarified
• Introduce Wei and Quin as states/realms. Delink Quin when it is mentioned for the second time. Borsoka (talk) 03:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much @Borsoka, I look forward to beginning these over the coming days. Aza24 (talk) 16:48, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Kusma

An impressive list, I have never seen an attempt to put all of these together. It is worth having for the massive list of references alone, very helpful.

• What exactly are the inclusion/exclusion criteria? I notice that the kings of Nanyue (for example, Zhao Mo) and Minyue are not included, although they were both Chinese and monarchs.
• Numerous natural disasters occurred, after which Quanrong him and overran the capital looks broken
• What is the rationale for sometimes having Personal name first, sometimes Posthumous or Dynastic name?
• Why are the capitals/residences only mentioned in some dynasties? If you don't want them in the table, you could just mention them in an introductory paragraph. More introductory short sentences about each of the dynasties might be a good idea in general.
• Taizong is 太宗, not 唐太 (of course, he is of the 唐 dynasty).
• Wu Zetian: his contribution??
• The Tang empire reached its peak during his early reign, but tragically fell of grace at the end as a result of the disastrous An Lushan Rebellion. Don't say "tragically", it is editorialising. The "life details" section needs similar improvement in many places to remove value judgments that are non-encyclopaedic.
• Would it be worth noting more clearly when we have several kings/emperors at the same time? For example, the last Yuan Emperor and the first Ming Emperor have overlapping reigns, and sometimes we have several dynasties ruling parts of China for hundreds of years (of course, 天下大势合久必分分久必合)
• Why would eunuchs lead to instability? (Yingzong of Ming)
• Why is Hong Taiji not on the list? His article describes him as a Qing dynasty emperor...
• Isn't it worth mentioning that Puyi became Emperor of Manchukuo?
• What calendar are Western-style dates written in? (Are any of them Julian or are all of them Gregorian?)
• The list neither uses consistently simplified nor consistently traditional characters. (I personally think traditional fits the subject matter better, and the majority is written in traditional characters). Tang of Shang uses simplified 汤 instead of traditional 湯 (and Da Yi is 大乙, not 天乙). But Yang Jia of Shang then uses traditional 陽, not simplified 阳.
• Wu Zetian should be traditional 武則天.
• Xuan of Northern Zhou should be 宣皇帝, not 明皇帝. Double check all Chinese characters.
• Most of the Chinese names in the Liang dynasty look wrong.

Stopping here, I think there is quite a bit more work to do, but I think it can be done. Good luck and happy editing, —Kusma (talk) 22:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I edited most of the Mid-Imperial period, so those are my mistakes. To be honest, I’m not that versed in English (yet alone Chinese, I’ll try to fix those character mistakes as soon as I can). That said, I would like to comment about a few of your points.

• I’m not really familiar with Vietnamese history, but I’m pretty sure the monarchs of Nanyue and Minyue are usually referred as Vietnamese rather than Chinese monarchs, hence why they are not included in lists.
• All dates are in the Gregorian calendar. It should be mentioned somewhere in the article (not sure where exactly).
• The inclusion / exclusion criteria is something that will most likely need a separate discussion. You are not the first to mention the case of Hong Taiji (see the article's discussion). He was not "a ruler of the entirety of China", but neither were the countless emperors/kings during the Sixteen Kingdoms and Southern-Northern dynasties, nor the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms. Upon consideration, I think it would be best to exclude the rulers of these chaotic periods and place them on separate lists. Aza24 will probably disagree with me on this one, but I would like to also ask the opinion of others.

Tintero21 (talk) 02:32, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The Nanyue kings were ethnic Chinese kings who ruled from a capital universally considered as Chinese (Guangzhou) over a territory that was mostly in modern China. While they were not emperors of China, they certainly fit "Chinese monarchs". As does Yuan Shikai, by the way. I don't really want to argue for the inclusion or exclusion of anyone, just for clear criteria (even if they turn out to be "we follow this particular list in the literature") as currently it is difficult to tell who should be in and who should be out. —Kusma (talk) 06:28, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I guess the argument for exclusion of things like the Kingdom of Tungning (and maybe also Nanyue, although the case there seems weaker to me) is something like only mentioning the "main" rulers, and if there is not a single main ruler, you mention all. But it would be good to be explicit about these choices. —Kusma (talk) 08:44, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments by HE YUNONG

I think this is a good article, which meets the six criteria of a good article.

• 1. First of all, the content of the article is clear.
• 2. Can be verified without original research, has a reliable source.
• 3. Wide coverage, this article is always focused on the topic of the list of Chinese monarchs.
• 4. Articles are neutral.
• 5. The article is stable, it does not undergo major daily changes due to ongoing editorial battles or content disputes.
• 6. There are many pictorial illustrations of Chinese monarchs in the article.HE YUNONG (talk) 06:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)