Wikipedia:Peer review/Frederick Delius/archive1

Frederick Delius

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Frederick Delius is a highly original English composer, born in Yorkshire, who led an interesting and unusual life. He has never achieved wide popularity or been given the recognition accorded to his contemporary Edward Elgar, though he has always had a dedicated following. This article is a joint effort from myself and User:Tim riley. We are aware of several issues relating to the images, and they may change considerably in the course of this review. Otherwise we would welcome any comments or advice on how to improve the text. We see this as a potential featured article, so it should be reviewed against the featured article criteria. Many thanks, Brianboulton (talk) 19:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

• Comment This is a brilliant contribution and there is little in the way of constructive criticism I can offer. There is a tiny, tiny misquote from Fenby (1981), which, in the source reads, "I overheard Delius say, 'Jelka, that boy is no good! He is too slow. He cannot even take down a simple melody!" And would it interest the readers to learn that he was re-buried at midnight? There is a plate in Fenby (between pp.106–107) showing the front page of Sunday Dispatch, from 26 May 1935 to support this. Graham Colm (talk) 13:19, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

  Thanks, Graham. I have corrected the misquote you refer to, and have added a couple of lines on the Limpsfield burial. You earlier corrected a wrong page ref, so thanks for that, too. Brianboulton (talk) 15:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

• Some comments I've read through the article and it looks pretty good. The comments below are a mixture of possible copy-edits, nit-picking, questions, suggestions and corrections. I am no expert on Delius, incidentally, so some errors may have passed me by. Here we go:
  • Lead and Early years: "Bradford in the north of England", then "Bradford in the West Riding of Yorkshire in the north of England". Hm, repetitive and too much information, especially as we know he was English. The Bradford link will tell the curious where it is. I'd be inclined to say Bradford, Yorkshire first and then just Bradford. Or vice versa.

    Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Early years: comma required between Elise Pauline and née

    Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Florida: "Jacksonville had a rich, though to a European unorthodox musical life." Prefer "rich though, to a European, unorthodox"

    Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Leipzig and Paris: comma needed after Patrick Hadley

    Already done, I find – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

    • The Magic Fountain links to a 1961 film

      Unlinked. Most grateful! Must do the same in the List of Works article – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

    • What is Margot la Rouge doing in this section? It was written in 1901-2, and 1902 was when Ravel published the vocal score.

      Clarified – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • "a purely orchestral version of Appalachia" What? We aren't told what Appalachia is and what the alternative to a purely orchestral version might be. There are other instances later of compositions that aren't explained. I don't think we should expect people to have to look at the List of Works every time.

    Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • First successes: "Grez-sur-Loing, a village 40 miles (64 km) outside Paris on the edge of Fontainebleau" - does this mean on the edge of the Forest of Fontainebleau? The town itself isn't all that large but the commune is apparently very large.

    Checked map - Forest it is; changed link – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

    • "The first performance of Paris" - see above, Appalacchia

      Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

    • Mitternachtslied - same again, and why mention A Mass of Life (without explanation) here? Better to refer back when AMAoL is mentioned in the next section.

      Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Growing reputation: Appalachia unexplained again;

    Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

    • Koanga - same again;

      Clarified at first mention – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

    • Also sprach Zarathustra is not a poem!

      Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • War and post-war - "his music for James Elroy Flecker's Hassan" should be "incidental music" and "play, Hassan"

    Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Music - reception - "more than 60 songs": I counted 55 in the List of compositions

    Fenby says "more than 60" and I think he's right. 55 is the number listed as "songs for single voice". In the section above, "Vocal works with piano accompaniment, or unaccompanied" we have 6 German songs and 2 "Songs of a summer night on the river", making the total over 60. Brianboulton (talk) 12:06, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Struggle towards maturity: "Cardus argues that melody, while not a primary factor , is there abundantly, "floating and weaving itself into the the texture of shifting harmony" – a characteristic, Cardus believes shared only by Debussy": extra space after "factor"; final bit would read better as "a characteristic that Cardus believes is (was?) shared only by Debussy"

    I have amended as you suggest; I think "is" is correct, since the music of Delius and Debussy still exists. Brianboulton (talk) 12:06, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Full flowering: "Payne exempts the incidental music to Hassan (1920–23) from condemnation, believing that the piece contains some of Delius's best work" - I wouldn't describe incidental music as "a piece". It's a series of pieces, or a composition, or (maybe best and certainly shortest) "it".

    Agreed and done. Brianboulton (talk) 12:06, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Note 12: "he admired Elgar's late Falstaff" - the late Falstaff is Verdi's (he was ~80); Elgar's Falstaff premiered in 1913 when the composer was 56ish (he died at ~77) and somewhat before the cello concerto and some other stuff.

    • On Tim's behalf I have removed the "late". If he disagrees he'll speak up. Brianboulton (talk) 12:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

    • I think that it's worth mentioning that Opera North performed A Village Romeo and Juliet in 1984 (50th anniversary of Delius's death), having already done it in 1980 - apparently David Lloyd-Jones is a great fan. I can supply a reference if needed. There could be a bit more on the operas in general (I have Opera Grove and Viking/Penguin), if required.

      • Since this article is a life of Delius, we don't really want to get into details of modern productions of his works. If the 1984 Opera North production was specifiaccly a 50th anniverary tribute, it's worth a mention. Can you provide source details? Brianboulton (talk) 12:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

        • I'll have to dig my programme out of a cardboard-box-full - shouldn't take long ...
          • Found it. Programme for Opera North's production of A Village Romeo and Juliet, premiered on 29 May, 1984 at the Grand Theatre, Leeds. "A new production by Opera North to mark the 50th anniversary of the composer's death. Presented in association with the Delius Trust, who made possible Opera North's original production and have also made a donation towards this restaging." --GuillaumeTell 19:08, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
• Update: I've added a sentence and a ref about the 50th anniversary to the first para (which deals with the Trust) in the Memorials and Legacy section. Feel free to move and/or reword it, or ask me for further details as you think fit. --GuillaumeTell 16:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
  • • Afraid all the above is a bit scrappy, but hopefully intelligible. That's all, folks! Good luck! --GuillaumeTell 01:07, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

      Thanks for the comments. I have dealt with those in the "Music" half of the article and will leave Tim to handle the others. Brianboulton (talk) 12:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Wehwalt

I have a few things. Excellent article. Early 20th century music or literature has never been my field, so I learn much from you.

• Early years

My eternal complaint. Isn't "British citizen" better "British subject" when applied to a 19th century person?

I believe that is technically correct, and have changed accordingly. – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

"Protected from the excessive summer heat" I've been to Jacksonville in July, and I'd agree with you but still it is probably POV. Perhaps remove the "the"?

Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

"In Autumn 1885 he left". What does the MOS say about capitalization, and is it possible to avoid the seasonal reference to appease the Australians?

Changed to "late" – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

At some point did he quit his job way down upon the St. John's River?

Never formally, it seems, but his brother was despatched to take over. I have added that once he left the Grove he only ever worked as a musician – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Leipzig and Paris

It might be worth mentioning if Dad paid for the conservertoire, because that makes the details about Dad giving his consent and being persuaded a lot more relevant.

Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

You mention Appalachia at the end of the third paragraph. Somewhat later in the article you both mention and explain what it is.

Redrawn – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Growing reputation

"on the same Nietzsche poem". Perhaps a pipe to it?

Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• War and post-war

Is Heseltine referring to Britain or France?

Nice point! Clarified – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Grez. You refer to him leaving there while the area is threatened by the advancing German armies. I get the impression of months. Yet when I read the chronology through later, it seems to have been the entire war. Perhaps massage the phrasing to reconcile?

Done – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Last years

There is probably an article about the 1930 test series to pipe to.

There is and I have (despite the result of the series) – Tim riley (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Music. I should add this side of the article is one of your strengths, in all your musical bios.
• Influences

"During the 1870". Normally, I'd just correct this, but am unsure if you are going for the decade or year.

Typo, corrected. Brianboulton (talk) 12:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

"giving several acclaimed concerts in Bradford." For some reason, this phrase bothers me. Each of the concerts was acclaimed?

"Acclaimed" in this sense merely means "praised", so I reckon the word can be applied to each concert, but I'll change it to "well-received". Brianboulton (talk) 12:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:43, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. As per above, as my involvement in the biography part of the article was small, I'll let Tim field the points arising from that part. Brianboulton (talk) 12:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Excellent stuff here from both Guillaume Tell and Wehwalt. I note that most of the queries apply to the biog section! A moral there, perhaps. Shall review and deal over the next couple of days. Meanwhile, thanks to both reviewers. Tim riley (talk) 15:01, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Later: now all attended to – and all very much ad rem. Hearty thanks to both. Tim riley (talk) 09:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Great work, as always, gentlemen. I did some proofreading, but please feel free to change anything you disagree with. As to the hidden quotes about using Delius against vandals in the metro, it could be used to illustrate the topics discussed in the last paragraph of the Reception section, namely that 1) Delius's music is soothing (rather than modernist?); and 2) some people don't like it. Or it could go into a footnote after the assertion that people either like or don't like Delius. All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:13, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for this. As to the metro addition, I think it is about as notable as the name of Delius's brother-in-law's next-door-neighbour's pet spaniel. I think it should simply be removed. What do others think? Tim riley (talk) 09:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

It's trivia, and I've removed it. The spaniel was called Patch, by the way. Brianboulton (talk) 10:01, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Expanding on my remark, above, this article is a biographical study of Delius and a summary analysis of his music. The anecdote in question is unrelated to Delius, and is of no significamce in relation to a study of his music. It's like saying, in the Mahler article, that his Seventh Symphony was used in an oil advert, or in the Mozart biography, that his "Jupiter" symphony was used as a Wombles song (both true - my daughter was convinced for a long time that Mozart wrote Wombles music). Trivia should not be added to scholarly music articles. The place for this story is an article about the Newcastle Metro. Brianboulton (talk) 15:21, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

A couple of comments on the images as they currently stand:

• I'm not very happy with "municipal hall", a rather unBritish expression, for Bradford City Hall (built as Bradford Town Hall, name changed in the 1960s)
  • Yes "Town Hall" is much better (I'll do the link, too) Brianboulton (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
• The "Woodcut illustration (1919) of the young lovers Sali and Vrenchen from A Village Romeo and Juliet" apparently relates to Keller's story, not the opera, in which the characters in Delius's English libretto are Sali and Vreli.
  • I've extended the caption to clarify the Keller link. Brianboulton (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
• adding (not about the images) that I've just noticed that the composer is Frederick Albert Theodore Delius in the lead, but Fritz Theodore Albert Delius in "Early years". I know about Fritz/Frederick, but did he move the middle names around as well? (F.A.T Delius? Hmm.)
  • Quite. There is some confusion, arising from Beecham's use of the sequence "Fritz Albert Theodor" (sic). Other authorities (Grove Music Online, ODNB, Fenby 1971 and The Musical Times all give "Fritz Theodore Albert" which can be taken as correct. Beecham was a bit sloppy as to details; we could draw attention to his error in a footnote, but it seems barely worth while. Brianboulton (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
• --GuillaumeTell 17:10, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for these spots. Brianboulton (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. Once again, Tim riley and Brianboulton have produced an excellent article. Thank you, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Since I have no major criticism, and it seems pretty comprehensive as far as I can tell, I edited as I went rather raising issues here: I made minor changes and asked inline for one tiny fact to be clarified. I seem to remember Timothy West playing Beecham on TV - did I imagine it? - no, it was in 1990 I see - which contained interactions with Delius (such as at an orchestral rehearsal, something like "is that a C or a C sharp?" - pause - "Frederick, I wish you'd take the trouble to learn your music") - these exchanges were presumably drawn partly from Cardus's book on Beecham. I wonder if that might be a useful additional source? I'll try and dig out my copy and have a look. --RobertG ♬ talk 13:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
• PS, I'm sorry, Tim, you thought the clarification I asked for above was "pointless". --RobertG ♬ talk 12:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Good heavens! I thought that was the work of a bot! I'm so sorry to have expressed myself so rudely. Profound apologies! Tim riley (talk) 14:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I think Robert G is correct and have changed "comprising" to "including". See Comprise. However, if the audience was just those three people, please change it back. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Note: peer review now closed. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)