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Levin was, in my view, technically and aesthetically the finest writer of English since Wodehouse (of whom he was a great admirer) as well as an idealistic journalist, a champion of individual freedom and implacably hostile to tyranny, whether of the left or right wing kind. There is no printed biography of him (nor, I suspect, any imminent prospect of one) and in overhauling this article I have been reliant entirely on online resources and Levin's own books. I don't, therefore, suppose that this article can be got up to FA standard, but I hope it might be possible to get it to GA. Any comments on the content and the prose will be gratefully received. Tim riley (talk) 20:16, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Ssilvers comments: From a quick look at it, I wonder if you can break up the long section called The Times into two sections? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thank you for that. Tim riley (talk) 07:12, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: I shall enjoy reading this at leisure, later today or tomorrow. Just one comment, meanwhile: I think the first sentence needs a stronger summary characterisation of Levin, rather than the bald facts of "English journalist, author and broadcaster". He was a lot more interesting than that. Brianboulton (talk) 09:09, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done, I think, but happy to be steered towards other additions. Tim riley (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More BB comments: As anticipated, I really enjoyed this. I read a lot of Levin, and though I was never a particular admirer, particularly in his later manifestations, he could be extremely funny, though cruel at times. Here are some areas for consideration:-

  • "Levin hoped to go to the University of Cambridge, but, as his obituarist in The Times wrote, he "was not considered Oxbridge material".[9] Instead, he enrolled at the London School of Economics (LSE), where he studied from 1948 to 1952.[1]" These two sentences, as presently written, give the unaware reader a very odd idea about how the English higher education system works, or worked. You need to reword; I suggest you at least indicate who it was that didn't consider him Oxbridge material, (and incidentally explain what "Oxbridge" means), and replace "Instead, he enrolled at..." with "However, he was accepted by..." or some such wording that doesn't suggest that LSE is somewhere you can just enrol at.
I can't do much with the first bit: that's all the source says. My guess would be that as admission to Oxbridge in those days was more by Establishment contacts than nowadays Macnutt and/or the Cambridge authorities earmarked Levin as "Not One Of Us", but I can't support that with a citation. I've redrawn the bit about getting into the LSE and blue-linked Oxbridge. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "From...to..." is a normal construction, but I am less sure about "From...to...to...", which reads very awkwardly. See the sentence beginning "He wrote on a wide range of subjects..."
I rather like it, but have redrawn. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the same paragraph, it would help to explain that Gilmour remained the Spectator's proprietor after he relinquished the editorship.
Yes. I wondered about that when writing it, and am happy to add it for clarity. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some referencing has been overlooked. See, for example, first paragraph of "The Spectator" section and third para of "Television and The Pendulum Years" section
Done (I think) – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He compiled his own [index] for this book" - can you clarify which book (last title mentioned was Chatterley)?
Done. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Music was a frequent theme, not only Wagner..." You have mentioned Wagner once before, briefly, in a list of topics that Levin wrote on, but haven't indicated that Levin wrote copiously and frequently on Wagner, so as to justify the phrase "not only Wagner". I think this aspect of his work needs a little more fleshing-out; he was devoted to Wagner's music to the point of obsession, or so it seemed.
Good point. I've added a bit. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is the number of words in Levin's Shakespeare paragraph significant?
Redrawn. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Politics: you mention Levin's early enthusiasm for Marxism, and indicate his general sympathy for Labour and the left at least until the early 1970s. You don't mention the distinctly right-wing slant he took from the mid 1970s; I remember articles and TV appearances in the late 1970s or early 1980s, in which he lauded aspects of Thatcherism and derided the left. At the time I placed him firmly in that group of journalists (Paul Johnson was an even more outstanding example) who crossed from the left to the right under the baleful spell of That Woman. But I also remember that when Tony Blair became leader of the Labour Party in 1994 Levin, in one of his later articles, hailed him as the hope of the future. So much for that, but I would like to see in the article a more detailed reflection of Levin's political journey, whatever form it took.
Done. I think you will like the Levin quote I have added. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • CBE: I am regularly called to account by knowledgeable people for writing that so and so was "awarded" a CBE etc. I am informed that CBEs are appointed. (See elegant wording in Ferrier article).
It takes all sorts! I suppose, as Fowler said, "my pedantry is your scholarship, his reasonable accuracy, her irreducible minimum of education and someone else’s ignorance" – he said nothing of lunatic obsessions, but we must be all-embracing and I have redrawn. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's really all I have. It's certainly within range of GA and with a little more research could, I believe, make the top rank. Brianboulton (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for these points. All very much ad rem. I think I'll keep my sights on GA. The absence of a proper biographical book makes me feel FA would be not quite the thing. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I got C. R. M. F. Cruttwell through FAC on little more than Evelyn Waugh's harassment of the poor sod, and on that basis I'd say that there is plenty of material on Levin, but perhaps you are less of a chancer than I am. Brianboulton (talk) 00:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Guillaume Tell comments: I've just had a brief glance through and wonder if there could be a bit more on Conducted Tour than just note 11. In particular, The Year of the Missing Lemon Juice - please try not to fall off your chair laughing - deserves a mention and perhaps a quote, IMO. I've got a copy somewhere if you need page numbers. --GuillaumeTell 10:24, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lead me not into temptation! I have all Levin's books except the Shakespeare and Utopia ones, and in particular I've long had the entire Vestale episode transcribed in my commonplace book, and would love to quote it, but I can't think how to do so effectively. As Simon Hoggart said, "It's hard to quote Levin, since his pieces depended on a long build-up, beginning with the simple and even the banal, ending with an assault which could make you come close to doubling up with laughter". I'd be happy to include a sample if you can home in on a bite-size chunk, though. Tim riley (talk) 12:52, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: An interesting article! It feels as if I'm nit-picking but I would recommend the following minor alterations:

  • With your block quote "Until then sketch writers ...", I would use Template:Quote or something similar, as you have to include the attribution after the quote.
  • You have used semicolons in a liberal way, (e.g., "...prosecuted for criminal libel;"), but I think colons are more correct. Ignore this if you know better!
  • British Empire, not empire.
  • Many of your quotations are cited - I would write "...gfngn fgfngm".[1] and not "...gfngn fgfngm."[1] --Amitchell125 (talk) 21:35, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some very interesting and helpful points there – thank you! I have dealt with the third and fourth points, will ponder the first (terra incognita to me) and will comb through to see if any semicolons ought to be colons – I hope not, but we shall see. Many thanks for your suggestions. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Wehwalt
I am forced by circumstances (exhaustion) only to do part of this tonight, and a small part at that. What I have seen looks quite good, but I have a few comments:
Lede

"The Times as "the most famous journalist of his day". " Ultimately it is editorial judgment but I would say that I'd rather have a fact than an opinion so early in the lede. I suggest stating something outstanding Levin did.

I'll look something up on those lines and substitute. – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps combine the two small paragraphs?
Early years
  • "The father abandoned the family when Levin" I suggest "Philip Levin abandoned his family when his son ..."
  • " were still children." Can you be more specific? Because right now it is just stating the obvious.
  • "Kreisler or Heifetz" This will be easier in the reader if you use the word "violin" before mentioning these virtuosos.
  • "his mother encouraged him" Suggest finding a verb that will imply that he actually won the scholarship.
  • I would suggest swapping the second and third paragraphs of this section.
  • "gentile" Suggest, if the source will support it, "Christian
    • Now recast, and much the better for it – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I will hope to get in a few more licks in the morning (early afternoon your time), unfortunately, being on the road, these things take a little longer!--Wehwalt (talk) 04:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Warmest thanks for these points. There is absolutely no hurry with this article – please only look at it further when you have time, inclination and enough sleep! – Tim riley (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • More points:
Continuing with Early years:
  • "it struck Levin as so appalling" perhaps "According to Levin, it was so appalling"
  • " It was suggested that he should study for the Bar," By whom? Also, there may be a better term for "study for the Bar", which might confuse American readers as the course of study for the bar exam is separate from "law school".
  • "selecting cuttings". They weren't cut yet, were they? Perhaps "selecting articles". Nice work, if you can get it.
    • Done. And yes, I had this as part of my job many years ago, and it was bliss. Tim riley (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Journalism
  • "Ronald Staples, who, together with his new editor Vincent Evans, was determined " I would cut at least two of the commas, possibly retaining the one after "Staples" (Frankly, that one could go as well).
  • "Levin's noticeably Jewish surname, together with such skills as he had acquired in shorthand and typing, gained him immediate acceptance." You mean if Levin was a goy, he would not have been accepted? Oy gevalt. I suggest a rephrase.
    • Yes, that is pretty much what I mean. When the editor heard that he had an applicant with a non-WASP name he said, "Send him in – he's got the job". No doubt being called Makhaya Ntini or Sachin Tendulkar or Imran Khan would have been equally advantageous, but the point is that the idealistic new brooms at Truth grappled to them with hoops of steel someone who was patently anathema to the paper's previous Mosleyite galère.
  • "He gave the opening programmes" Is "He" Levin or Mooney?
The Spectator
  • "against the attempted takeover by the Egyptian dictator Colonel Nasser" If you leave it like this, you are going to get POV concerns. I would avoid, in this paragraph, detailed info about the Suez Crisis, and either call Nasser, er "Nasser" or call him president (or whatever his title was).
    • I wondered how long I'd get away with this. (POV? You should see the Suez Crisis article, which seems to have been written by Colonel Nasser and John Foster Dulles!) I shall ponder on a more emollient phrasing. Tim riley (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "had already spotted Levin and" Delete these words, change the word him a couple of words later to "Levin".
  • "Lord Stillborn" I'm not sure if you should link Stillborn to the article about still births, but at least give it a thought.
  • " three Arabs unjustly imprisoned by the British authorities" Is it unanimously held, even by the British government, that these three were unjustly imprisoned? If not, avoid the term. Also consider a few words to describe the book there, since not everyone may have read LC'sL.
    • "Unjustly" deleted. Have worked up a few words about Lady C. (Not a word to the vicar about this.) Tim riley (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • " professing himself" A little flowery! Perhaps "stating". Also, end the paragraph after this sentence, and start a new one.
    • I'll fight for flowery in re Levin of all people! Para - good idea. Tim riley (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More later.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All marvellously helpful, thank you. I look forward to more, but I repeat, please deal with this article only when you have world enough and time. Tim riley (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resuming with Television
  • "In 1963" suggest somewhere in the sentence you throw in the term "short-lived" so readers understand that when you wrote "In 1963" you did not mean "From 1963".
  • "In 1966" "In 1970". I would not begin consecutive paragraphs like this. It will probably get cleaned in the wash, but for future information, I see no reason why the one is followed with a comma, and the other is not.
  • Was Levin a panelist throughout Face the Music's run?
  • "Among his topics " This is awkward. You've put a little known figure (well, in 2011) before two PMs, yet because you comment on the PMs, it is awkward if you rearrange things. At least take a second look at this sentence.
    • As you say, St. Mugg is now rather forgotten, and I have removed reference to him. Tim riley (talk) 18:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would clarify the image caption to make sure people understand that it is an image from 1871.
  • "A by-product" I would make the interest in indexes the subject of this sentence, as in: Levin's interest in indexes developed ...
The Times
  • I would move the clause about the general election campaign to immediately following "In June 1970".
  • "He commandeered a desk in the anteroom" Suggest ending the sentence after the words "affairs of the paper" and spin off the rest into its own sentence with the words "In addition" beginning it.
  • "Levin caused a lawsuit" Perhaps "provoked"?
  • "After Levin's death The Times published an article showing that information " I think this is a bit POV; after all The Times only has to print one side of the evidence. Something along the lines of "stating" or "alleging" might be in order rather than "showing".
  • Just as a thought, you might want to make the Shakespeare quote a blockquote.
    • Excellent idea!

All your suggestions acted on. Thank you so much. Looking forward to your last lot of comments (when you are good and ready, that is). Tim riley (talk) 18:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will finish, I hope, tonight, then read through for a doublecheck.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:24, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

i won't be finishing the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:32, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Grateful for what you have been able to do already. Thank you very much. Tim riley (talk) 07:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Arriana:
  • The name rang no bell with me until I saw "Huffington" when of course I recognized it. As she is best known under that name, esp in US, perhaps put it in the section name perhaps in parens? It might catch the eye of the casual browser. And I would certainly at least mention her present name in the caption.
  • "still a youth" Strike "still".
  • Bhagwan: As he is (at least among those who remember) notorious in the US for the Oregon commune (joined, famously by Bill the Cat), it might be worth a phrase or a parenthetical saying that he relocated to Oregon. Wonder if Levin wrote later columns about him ...
    • I'll read up on this and add a few words if I come up with something suitable. An interesting sidelight.
  • "For the BBC, Levin travelled to musical festivals around the world," reverse the clauses.
  • I don't think you have to list all the festivals he went to.
1980s
  • "Within a year " split sentence, perhaps also say when the falling out/replacement occurred.
  • Ultimately your choice but I think it's more effective if you mention the 1982 phrase first, then say something like "This recalled Levin's first column after a 1979 printer's strike, when he ..."
    • Yes, I wondered about this when I was writing it. Now done – Tim riley (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "another leading Jewish intellectual " The word "Jewish" is a can of worms here. First, you tell us Levin did not consider himself Jewish. Now, there is a school of Jewish thought that says you are a Jew no matter what if you are born as such, some even go to far as to say even a Jew who has converted, using the proof text, as I recall, "until the day of his death God waits for him". But you don't want to know all that. Additionally, unless they were depicted as Jews (straggly beards, prayer shawls) I don't see the relevance of even Miller's Judaism. Unless there is a strong reason for describing them as Jewish, I wouldn't.
    • Done. I felt uneasy at the time that there was (it seemed to me) a whiff of anti-Semitism in the caricatures of Levin and Miller, but I have no citation to back this up, and have deleted as suggested. – Tim riley (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The nearest Levin came to publishing an autobiography was his book Enthusiasms published in 1983:" Perhaps better as: Levin never published an autobiography, though his 1983 book Enthusiasms contains chapters on ..." Break out that lenghy parentetical into a sentence of its own, perhaps ending the paragraph.
  • "visited the home of eau de Cologne" If you are saying he went to Koln, say so. If you are saying he went to a manufactory, say so. If you are saying both, say both.
  • " from a sword-swallowing unicyclist to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Donald Trump, and a bag lady in Central Park." I see a from/to construction as the demonstration of a contrast. Some of that is lost by the inclusion of the bag lady; I'd either strike that or move it to after the unicyclist. Better yet, strike the unicyclist and put the bag lady in his place, reading a clear contrast based on wealth.
    • Redrawn, splitting into famous and not famous. – Tim riley (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Last years
  • " delivering the eulogy described Levin as" Better, "eulogised Levin as"
    • That reads oddly to a British reader's eye: pithier undeniably, but somehow unidiomatic – Tim riley (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Honours
  • "He was appointed CBE" Is this the proper terminology for one who is made a CBE? I would doublecheck. And while what the Times said is great, I'd put the CBE first.
    • Done (and Brianboulton has sternly enjoined me to use "appointed CBE") – Tim riley (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck with it.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:39, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am so grateful for the very considerable detail of your suggestions. Heartfelt thanks. Tim riley (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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