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Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2012 November 26

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November 26Edit

Citing sources when the info exists both in print and onlineEdit

(I realize there often aren't absolute answers regarding WP practices, but when answering these questions, could you please discuss what would be ideal/a best practice/hold up best under scrutiny? Thanks!) When writing for Wikipedia, the sources I find/access are mostly online, but many of them also have printed media equivalents that I typically don't have access to. When citing an online source like (not the printed New York Times newspaper, even if the article exists in both the print and online edition) or (not the print edition of Car and Driver magazine) -

  • is {{Cite web}} preferred over other templates like {{Cite news}} or {{Cite journal}} only when the resource exists online exclusively and has no print version equivalent?
  • is it preferable to use {{Cite web}} -or- should I use {{Cite news}}/{{Cite journal}} when citing the online edition of a publication with print and online editions? Why? (Lots of newspapers and magazines have both printed and on-line editions, so how do I choose one citation template over the other?)
  • when using the {{Cite web}} template is the |work= parameter the top level URL of the resource like | OR is it |work=Legitimate News OR is it |work=Legitimate News (online) or is it something else? (Let's assume I'm citing an online only resource.)
  • when I access the online version of a journal/magazine and the online version lists the volume, issue and page number for the article in the print version, I've been using {{Cite journal}} and listing the volume/issue/page even though I've never seen the print version. Is that what I should be doing?

-Thanks. (talk) 00:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

It may be best to ask this at Help talk:Citation Style 1. - Purplewowies (talk) 05:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
The Citation Style 1 templates should generally render the same output. As noted at Help:Citation Style 1#Templates, {{cite news}} is used for news articles in print, video, audio or web; {{cite web}} is for web sources not characterized by another template.
The |work= field is for the name of the site. For example, the site at is named The New York Times.
With {{cite journal}}, if volume, issue and page are provide for an online version, then include them. This can help identify the document if the online version goes dead. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 07:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
I read through Help:Citation_Style_1 and it provided the answers I needed. Thanks for the responses and for pointing me toward that resource. (talk) 16:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

Family TreeEdit

Dear Sir,

I cannot find my ancestors, so could you please help, My family tree is Lieutenant General Parfeniy, Peter the Great, Anton Nefediev, my grandmother was countess Lydia Nefediev. I cannot find an connections so could you please help me.

Many thanks,

[details removed]— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 5.7 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. RudolfRed (talk) 00:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
We have an article on Peter the Great, but nothing on the other names. You might find the article Rulers of Russia family tree useful as a resource. Astronaut (talk) 21:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Problem Creating a ArticleEdit

I am creating an article about a film actor name Nilesh Sahay, but every time i create the page its get deleted by the admin. Hence i want to know about the steps to create a biography of a film star. Kindly guide me to do so. Thanking You. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:30, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The last time it was deleted this reason was cited: Wikipedia:CSD#A7. That means in the article, it "does not indicate why its subject is important or significant". Deleted articles are not available for me to look at, so I can't get any more specific than that. I suggest you first create the article in your sandbox, and get feedback on it before moving it to the normal article namespace. RudolfRed (talk) 05:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Since you are not a logged in user, your draft at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Nilesh Sahay is better than a user sandbox. But see WP:Entertainer for the the kind of notability that will make an article stick. And you will need to provide references to independent reliable sources. —teb728 t c 05:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Following up: Yunshui has created an article for Nilesh Sahay. —teb728 t c 06:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Justin WelbyEdit

Could someone take a look at the use of template:Infobox Christian leader in Justin Welby. It looks like the intent is to make Archbishop-designate of Canterbury italic. But that is not working and there is spurious "'" at the end of the line. Thanks Illia Connell (talk) 06:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The title would be in italics anyway, without the '', so I've changed it. - David Biddulph (talk) 07:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! Illia Connell (talk) 07:09, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Change to a Capital letter in article nameEdit

The move option in the Vector skin appears when you move your mouse cursor over the small drop-down menu, shown here. (Other users may not have the "TW", which is the optional gadget, twinkle).

Dear Help Desk,

I just published an article: Bjorn bertoft

Bjorn bertoft

But for some reason I missed the capital "B" in the surname...

Bjorn (given name) Bertoft (surname)

I can not find anywhere to edit the article name (...which I very well can understand why). Can anyone of you approved Wiki-authors possibly help to change the article name "Bjorn bertoft" to "Bjorn Bertoft"? Or how can that be edited if I have to do it. Please advice.

Thank you in advance.


Bertoft2012 (talk) 07:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

  Fixed I just renamed it. Autoconfirmed users (with at least 4 days and 10 edits) can move pages, but you are not autoconfirmed yet (but you only have a few more edits to go!). Just so that you will know how to do it once you are able, I posted a screenshot demonstrating the process.
Also, to link to an article on Wikipedia, simply enclose the title of the page with double brackets [[<title of page>]]. Example: [[Wikipedia]] produces Wikipedia.
The Anonymouse (talk • contribs) 08:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


To whom it may concern,

My name is Rami and for the past 3 months I have been trying to refine a submission I made to wikipedia about the organisation I work for. The last submission that I made was in October and I still have not received any feedback about my edited submission.

I would like to if possible, speak directly with one of your volunteers or get some kind of feedback and tips about how to fix the submission. The company is called SAMRO.

Your prompt feedback will be greatly appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rami Nhlapo (talkcontribs) 08:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

You haven't resubmitted the article for review, which is why no-one has reviewed it. Place the text {{subst:submit}} on the page to resubmit it. At present, there appears to be nothing in the article that demonstrates the company meets Wikipedia's notability requirements, so it is unlikely to be accepted without futher changes - you need to provide multiple, independent, reliable sources that give in depth coverage of SAMRO in order for us to host an article on the company. In addition, since you work for them, you should familiarise yourself with the conflict of interest guidelines. Yunshui  08:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
The draft article needs a lot of work before it has a chance of being accepted. As Yunshui has said, it does nothing to establish its subject's notability. It starts badly, with "SAMRO is a regional copyright administration business" – what region? of what country? I suggest that you establish notability, and greatly improve the article, before resubmitting it for review. And you should be aware that your conflict of interest means that you should not be editing the article at all. Maproom (talk) 10:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
For speaking directly with a volunteer, you could try the live help chat where you will be told much the same as what Yunshui and Maproom just told you, but in an interactive format and with erratic levels of patience and attempts at humour. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

bug in rendering page as PDFEdit

When I "download page as PDF", my browser goes to a page reporting the progress of rendering the page as a PDF. When the rendering is finished, the link to return to the Wikipedia article is shown as raw HTML, not as a link:

Rendering finished
Return to <a href="//">List of Love sculptures</a>

I can't find any other place to report this problem, even though it's not with a specific article. (It happened on Love (sculpture) as well.) I tried Bugzilla, but that's for serious programmers dealing with the back end. --Thnidu (talk) 09:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

You might want to post this at the Village Pump instead, and make sure to mention your browser name and version. The Anonymouse (talk • contribs) 09:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! Done. --Thnidu (talk) 03:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
NOT FIXED! took screenshot, going to Bugzilla. --Thnidu (talk) 03:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

What's the best licence for requesting photos?Edit

I want to email some people that have articles but no photos, asking if I can have a photo for Wikipedia. What licence should I ask them to release photos under? Is it this CC-BY-SA 3.0 Unported License thing?--A bit iffy (talk) 09:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I normally point them to Wikipedia:Declaration of consent for all enquiries which gives slightly different details. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for that — didn't know it existed. Seems a rather off-putting page though, so I'll probably fill in the blanks on the form and ask them "do you agree to the following".--A bit iffy (talk) 13:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Notes and referencesEdit

Dear Help Desk, I just published this article: Bjorn Bertoft

I have inserted references in order to strengthen the facts ...but as you can see something happened with the listings...first a list with all the links (1-18) then a list with numbers (1-14)..and they do not correlate with each others. What did I do wrong? I tried to fix it but no success...

Thank in advance you for advising me.

Best/BB Bertoft2012 (talk) 10:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

You don't need to duplicate the references at the bottom of the page - the Wikimarkup syntax does that for you. I've deleted the duplicate references, and I'll shortly reformat them to avoid linkrot. Yunshui  10:52, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Note that the article has been speedily deleted. Extract from the deletion log reads: A7: No explanation of the subject's significance (real person, animal, organization, or web content).--ukexpat (talk) 17:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

death datoEdit

I have found a reliable source that says that a person who here is listed as living on wikipedia are dead. indicate not how, when or why he died. what do I do?-- (talk) 13:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Be bold and make the change, remembering to cite the source as follows:-
Mdann52 (talk) 13:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikitable sortable: ÁBCD instead of BCDÁEdit


I want to sort a text column in a wikitable. I use "sortable", but the Á is sent to the last position, although it is an "A". How can I fix it?.

Rows with accent

--Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 13:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Hidden text? See Help:Sorting#Sorting with a hidden key.
Rows with accent
- David Biddulph (talk) 13:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
I thought something like "class=wikitable cod=utf-8". But your hint do it also. Thanks. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 15:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


i recently bought pallmalls cigeretts fromm shop and save in newkensington pa.there was 50 cents of on the pack,they would not give me the 50 cents they sais that that went to the why give the custamer a 50 cent off price if the store takes it not happy.the mans name was tom newkensington shop and save,some one need to look in to people ripping people off. thank you joyce gayle,i have no email .some one needs to take a stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 5.7 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. Roger (talk) 17:08, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Problems with partial transclusion within two wikipedia articlesEdit

Hello! I've been trying to transclude a section from one article into another article using the following code in the source article (as described in Wikipedia:Transclusion#Source Document Markup):


The code worked fine before I put a table inside the trascluded section (within "SECTIONBODY"). Is there any way to correctly transclude a section with a full table or with a part of a table (e.g. one or several rows)? Thank you very much, KeepOptions 19:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Please link the two pages. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:34, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
This is the source page: ru:Список известных философских школ и философов. The transclusions from the bottom sections work fine, the transclusion from the upper section contains a test table which does not work correctly with the code. (I am trying to transclude this into an article which is still in my sandbox). KeepOptions 19:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Try replacing all pipes in the table with {{!}}. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
It works! Thank you very much, PrimeHunter, I appreciate your help. KeepOptions 20:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

How to insert a photo?Edit

I would like to add a photo to an article by others, how can I do this? can I send you the photo for you to add? — Preceding unsigned comment added by S Risley (talkcontribs) 20:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

If the image does not exist on Wikipedia or the commons, you can request the image be uploaded at WP:Files for upload. If it already exists you can just add [[file:example.jpg|thumb|right]] which produces: You would just need to replace example.jpg with the actual name of the file. GB fan 20:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Civil Product DesignEdit

Can someone help me with writing a page on Civil Product Design? Thanks and with Regards, Veysel Ugur from Holland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CivilProductDesign (talkcontribs) 21:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Try WP:Articles for creation. --ukexpat (talk) 21:09, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Editing My Wikipedia BookEdit

I love the new feature of creating a Wikipedia Book. How can I edit the articles in my book to delete the portions that aren't directly what i need? Many articles have additional info that I don't need to include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garrettle (talkcontribs) 21:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia has no feature for that. Maybe you can download your book in a format you can edit with an external program. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:08, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

User:Wilmamassucco/Life does not lose its valueEdit

Can you please check if the page has now reach enough notability to be shifted from the category of userfy to an open and visible page of wikipedia? Thanks. Wilmamassucco — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilmamassucco (talkcontribs) 22:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I have tried to improve the English usage in the article, and have removed what appeared to me promotional passages. I have caused a red warning message to appear on the page; and I can't fix this by reverting it to the original, because, for reasons I do not understand, the original no longer exists. The page history credits me, wrongly, with creating the entire contents of the page. Maproom (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Fixed - just needed the {{reflist}} template adding. Keristrasza (talk) 23:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
That "wrong credit" is because someone moved it to mainspace without leaving a redirect before you were done editing, so it's basically like you recreated the userspace page. - Purplewowies (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
See: Life does not lose its value. Keristrasza (talk) 23:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Subsequently moved to La vita non perde valore.--ukexpat (talk) 19:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)