Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of members of the Basketball Hall of Fame (coaches)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 19:06, 11 July 2009 [1].

List of members of the Basketball Hall of Fame (coaches)

Nominator(s): Dabomb87 (talk), Chrishomingtang (talk)

Featured list candidates/List of members of the Basketball Hall of Fame (coaches)/archive1

Co-nom with Chrishomingtang (talk · contribs). We hope that this will be the first successful nom of a future featured topic on the Basketball Hall of Fame. Thanks in advance for your comments. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support- I cleaned it up a bit, fixing the starting position of the chart and de-sorting the reference column, but now it has my full support. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 17:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Very well-referenced list. Excellent work. --Carioca (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- Excellent list, the only thing I have to say is why not actually mention who the first 3 coaches to be inducted were? In addition, do the 2009 inductees not have achievements?--Tru co ₅₀₃ 22:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They have achievements, obviously. But since we use achievements that are listed on the hall's official entry online and the formal induction doesn't come until September (and they don't update the site very often), the entries are emptied. As for the first 3 coaches, I will add that shortly.—Chris! _ct 23:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- Meets WP:WIAFL.--Tru co ₅₀₃ 22:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from SRE.K.A.L.24

Comments from -- SRE.K.A.L.24_[c]

I'm planning to help out with the BHOF FT drive, just so you guys know.
- Great! Dabomb87 (talk) 13:48, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't this be (coaches) instead of (head coaches)? The term head coach probably came after the inception of the BHOF. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 06:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good point, and the HOF website agrees with you. I'll move it. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:48, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Don Haskins was also part of the 1966 Texas Western champions, just so you know, since you guys didn't include that into the article.
- So what about this one? -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Not sure what you're saying here, but his entry in the table says "NCAA championship (Texas Western, 1966)". Dabomb87 (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm saying that he was also inducted with the Texas Western team, and should be included in the lead. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:35, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Well, that statement is inaccurate. The team is inducted as a whole, but the induction doesn't extend to each individual within the team. That is why Haskins was inducted separately.—Chris! _ct 21:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Right. See this LA Times article, which makes no mention of his being inducted with the team. I did add a sentence that he was head coach of the team. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No lead picture?
- We have a lot of them in the article right now; which would you suggest? Or do you think we should use another picture of something besides a player? Dabomb87 (talk) 20:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I would suggest Auerbach, Daly, Krzyzewski, Jackson, or Riley, since those are probably the most notable coaches with images. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done, but I put Wooden up there. I daresay he's well known among anyone who knows basketball well. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - I barely follow college basketball, so sorry if not listing Wooden on my suggestions bothered you in any way. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:35, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"...seventy-nine more have been inducted since." --> "...a total of eighty-two coached have been inducted."
- Done, though I worded it differently. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Three coaches have also been inducted as players: John Wooden in 1960, Bill Sharman in 1976, and Lenny Wilkens in 1989." - So are the years their player induction years, or their coach induction years? -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's pretty clear from the context that those are player induction years, and you can easily look at the table if you can't tell. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Just wanted to know if it could be clarified more. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Not really. I think it's clear enough, and adding more info might actually confuse the reader more. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"...led his teams to NBA-record 25 consecutive postseason victories (1996–2003)" - "postseason victories" --> "postseason series victories". -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 20:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good catch, done. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - There's probably more on the table that needs clarification, so it would be nice if you could check some of them. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 21:35, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I couldn't catch anything else along those lines that needed fixing, although I made a couple other minor fixes. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Though I would suggest you list achievements for the 2009 coaches, even if they don't have a BHOF website yet. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 22:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Handpicking which achievements to include involves with NPOV issue, that's why I preferred not to do so.—Chris! _ct 23:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely agree. I'll probably be helping with the BHOF awards, just so you know. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 23:51, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Easily meets and exceeds FL standards. I did a review on the article's talk page before it came to FLC, and a second look turned up nothing of concern. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose but probably a lot of Brit-nonsense that can be ignored...

- Was it always called the "Naismith Memorial.... BHOF"? If so, should the list be name that way or is it a case of COMMONNAME here?
  - Basketball Hall of Fame is the common name. Naismith Memorial.... is the full official name.—Chris! _ct 18:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You say the Hall of Fame is "located in Springfield". Now call me too British for my own good - we have "halls of fame" here which are more abstract, i.e. people are elected to a Hall of Fame, but no physical location/hall is required for this. Could you just clarify that a bit for my taste?
  - Well, it is a tangible building. Would "...the campus of which is located in..." work? Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'd probably mention that the HoF is housed in a building or similar - perhaps your words are more appropriate, not sure. Either way, yes, I think it needs clarifying for us Brits....(!) The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - I gave it a shot. What do you think? Dabomb87 (talk) 20:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it a worldwide award? It seems to imply that it might be from the lead. If so, I'd state it, if not, I'd state it...
  - No explicit mention, but it is awarded to anyone who is considered a major impact on the sport (my paraphrase). There are foreign inductees (Aleksandar Nikolic), but you have to consider that the HOF is based in the US, and basketball originated in the US, so the bias is heavily American. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Okay. I think the idea of "foreign" inductees is worth a mention, even if they have plied their trade in the US. You understand my problem at the moment though? It's not clear to a complete novice what the scope of the award is. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done—Chris! _ct 18:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "8 Big Ten championships..." why isn't that "Eight Big Ten.... "?
  - See below. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not keen on inductees being centrally aligned, but won't oppose on that.
- Is the "National Basketball Coaches Association" different from "National Association of Basketball Coaches "? One is linked, the other isn't, and it's a touch confusing.
  - They are different, as the source is very clear on it. I was considering redlinking the former, but Google searches revealed nothing, and the only mention is here, so I don't know if there are RS's out there to warrant a redlink. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Hmmm. I think perhaps some more thought or investigation here. Unfortunately it's an area that I (clearly) know nothing about. It may just be a typo in the sourcing? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- NIT is used abbreviated before explanation in the table.
  - Done. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And shouldn't it be "four NIT berths" instead of "4 NIT berths"? There are a few others, am I missing something - I'd prefer MOSNUM but I may have misinterpreted the old "numbers below 10 in words" thing.
  - First bullet in Wikipedia:MOSNUM#Numbers as figures or words: "In tables and infoboxes, quantitative data is expressed as numerals; numerals will also fit better in limited space. Numbers within a table's explanatory text and comments should be consistent with the general rule." Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Now that is interesting. I wonder if we should seek exemption for lists (as "tables" probably currently covers lists) because our featured lists are a little bit more than just "tables" - I imagine an everyday Jo's impression of a table is a set of numbers etc, not a set of detailed prose. Perhaps another thing worth discussing in a wider forum? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "high-school" or "high school"?
  - Removed hyphens. I had put them in there because they were compound adjectives, but on further evaluation decided they weren't necessary. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sortable table, consider relinking things like Sports Illustrated so we don't necessarily have to go hunting for it.
- The 2009 inductees have zero achievements?
  - Since "achievements" is such a subjective category, we've been going by the official Hall of Fame website, which summarizes their most important achievements. They haven't put up 2009 yet. Do you think we should put up a footnote explaining this? Dabomb87 (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think a footnote is appropriate, at the very least. Otherwise I imagine others would ask the same question I just did... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man (talk) 17:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the detailed comments. I've replied to some of them, and will get the rest of them later today. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - You're very welcome. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

TRM, can I request you to cap/strikethrough any resolved comments? It's hard to see what's resolved and what's not right now. Thanks, Dabomb87 (talk) 17:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I'm working on adding links to abbreviations and spelling out numbers under ten; other Wiki and real-life things have held me up, but I'm hacking away at it. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'll see what I can do. You need to clarify what context "foreign" has here (I think) but, assuming you hit abbreviation links and MOSNUM, you're virtually there.... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - OK, all numbers under 10 spelled out except where they are in comparable contexts with larger numbers or in phrases such as "Figure 8 offense". I'll hit the links and foreign thing tomorrow. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Cool, well please ping me when you do. Real life (i.e. work) is making my time hit-and-miss at the moment. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        I think I got everything. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't "Basketball lists" a supercat of "Lists of basketball players"? And if it isn't, shouldn't it be? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, and done. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support thanks for addressing my concerns. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Rambo's Revenge (talk · contribs)

Comments by Rambo's Revenge (talk · contribs)

Eight of the inducted coaches were born outside the United States: Cesare Rubini in 1994... I know it isn't, but can't help thinking that it sounds like 1994 was the year Rubini was born in etc. Could this be reworded at all?
Coached Passaic High School to high school record 159-game winning streak; seven high school state championships (Passiac High School) -> "Coached Passaic High School to a high school record 159-game winning streak and seven high school state championships." I think there should be an "a" and also combining avoids repeating Passaic High School.
United Press International(1961–62) space after International
This source gives some achievements to Stringer's 2009 induction that could be used in the absence of the Naismith source. This gives info for Stringer and Sloan. I think it would good to add in information for them.
File:TTU Bob Knight.jpg, marked as OTRS pending. It was uploaded November 10, 2008 with OTRS pending tag. It expired without confirmation and the user claimed again yesterday the had "resent" OTRS. Now the uploader's history isn't great but they sent me a message on Commons explaining themselves. In trying to AGF I'm just going to say this is one to watch.

Other images checked out fine, I transferred 2 to Commons and PD reviewed others where appropriate. Couldn't find much wrong with the list. I would have commented on MOSNUM as the current way wouldn't have been my interpretation, but I can see you've been running in circles with it, so I'll leave it be. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 18:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll reply with corresponding bullets to make it easier to follow the discussions:

I'm wondering if I should just remove the years altogether. They aren't that crucial, and I think the second paragraph is information-heavy anyway. What's your opinion?
Good suggestion, done.
Good eyes, done.
It might be inconsistent with the other inductees, but comprehensiveness is more important, so I'll put it in. Doing...
- Done. I used the nba.com ref since that was the official release. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Could you contact me if the issue isn't resolved in a reasonable amount of time? I'll comment it out until the issue is resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually just removing the years might be a good idea. For your last point I don't understand what you want me to do. The image is still present in the list, so are you asking me to remove it if OTRS doesn't come through within a reasonable amount of time? Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the years; that should also resolve similar issues raised by SRE.K.A.L.24. As for the image, I'm just going to comment it out until OTRS arrives; I'll watchlist the image page. Is that alright? Dabomb87 (talk) 21:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get how this resolves the issues raised by me... -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 22:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The ambiguity problem; see your comment: "So are the years their player induction years, or their coach induction years?" Dabomb87 (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I'd assume Dabomb meant that with no years there is no possible ambiguity as to whether it is year of induction as a player or as a coach. And yes Dabomb that is fine. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Well done, Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thanks to everybody who has commented and/or supported. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.