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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of goaltenders who have scored a goal in a National Hockey League game

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by User:Gimmetrow 23:06, 18 November 2008 [1].

List of goaltenders who have scored a goal in a National Hockey League game edit

Did you know that only nine goaltenders have scored a goal in an NHL game? If you didn't, you didn't read the article. (Stolen from David Fuchs). Maxim(talk) 03:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment The article was only created half an hour ago, maybe you should have waited a day or so and allowed some of the regular hockey editors to take a look at it. -- Scorpion0422 03:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It is not stable as other users could possible make changes it to it or correct things, I recommend a copyedit in the prose and a check on tables before coming here, the list should have waited at least 36 hours before FLC.--SRX 03:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get why this is a valid comment. If the article has problems, then point out the problems. Whether it was created two minutes ago or a week ago, judge it on its own merits. Many of the lists I've made have practically no editors working in that area, and I'm the one bringing them forward. This simply isn't actionable. — sephiroth bcr (converse) 03:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another comment The lead says six goalies got a goal by shooting the puck in the net, but there are only five on the list (although it's more than possible I made an error when I made some changes). -- Scorpion0422 03:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • That would be my mistake, which I fixed. Maxim(talk) 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)—The article would have benfited greatly from a peer review, where most of the little things would have been addressed. However, since those issues were easy to deal with, I fixed most of them in this edit. I have a couple more things to ask: All issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Martin Brodeur, known for his puckhandling skills" Sounds POV to me.
    • It's a very accepted fact that Brodeur is one of the best ever, perhaps the best ever, puckhandler; do a survey at WT:HOCKEY, and trust me, you'll get a lot of votes for Brodeur. ;-) Also, it's in the third para of his article too. Maxim(talk) 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Martin Brodeur's second goal, which was credited to him,"—Why is "which was credited to him" needed? Was his first goal not credited to him?
    • He didn't shoot the puck in; it was an own-goal and the last opposing player to touch it was Brodeur. The wording's a bit confusing I agree; what do you suggest? Maxim(talk) 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • How about: "Martin Brodeur's second goal was actually an own goal by the opposing team; however, because Brodeur was the last opposing player to touch the puck, he received credit for the goal. It is the only game-winning goal scored by a goaltender." Dabomb87 (talk) 15:14, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 6, 7, and 8 (http://www.hockeygoalies.org/) deadlink, and what makes that site reliable?
    • The author cites his sources and he has some hockey background. See this about page. However, I've found better, stronger sources for those three ones, and I have replaced them. Maxim(talk) 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evgeni Nabokov was the first European goaltender to score a goal." Needs a source (If it comes from the book, an inline citation). Dabomb87 (talk) 06:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • An inline cite is needed when it's an unusual/controversial or challenged fact; in this case, Nabokov was the first non-Canadian or US goaltender to score, as evidenced by the list, and Russia is in Europe, so I don't see the need for an inline citation. Maxim(talk) 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Otherwise sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • WRT to the site, the author cites his sources and he has some hockey background. See this about page. However, I've found better, stronger sources for those three ones, and I have replaced them. [copied from my reply to Dabomb.] Maxim(talk) 21:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment All of the entries in the table need to be linked as it is sortable. Gary King (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Killervogel5
Comments from Killervogel5
  • Per WP:BOLDFACE, you should find some other way to indicate the facts currently shown using bold (additional symbols/colors, italics, etc.).
  • Rather than having the notes column, since everyone has a dagger or asterisk, just put them next to the names in the first column.
  • The flags in the table aren't necessary, per MOS:FLAG: "Flag icons may be appropriate as a visual navigational aid in tables, infoboxes or lists provided that citizenship, nationality or jurisdiction is intimately tied to the topic at hand, such as comparison of global economic data or reporting of international sporting event results, and cannot be expressed better with text. They should always be accompanied by their country names at least once." Either remove the column or change it to simply the name of the country.
  • Any particular reason why the column of dates is right-aligned?
  • "There have been two goaltenders to have both scored and earned a shutout in the same game" - "to have both scored" is grammatically incorrect, a split infinitive. Both could be removed, or this sentence can be reordered to remove this. I would also end this sentence with a semicolon to promote continuity with the two goalies who have accomplished this feat.
  • I would like to see the legend put into a separate table, a la many of the other sports FLs or FLCs.

Hope this helps. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 01:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well done. The only thing that I would change is leaving no spaces between the names and symbols, but otherwise, I support. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tried with no space, but it looked cramped, so I rved. Thank you very much for your support. Maxim(talk) 15:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks better with the superscript. :-) Maxim(talk) 15:25, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment You know, I liked it better with the seperate notes column because that way you could sort by who scored a goal and who was credited with one. -- Scorpion0422 22:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done--Maxim(talk) 23:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comment: I have to agree with Dabomb87 on the possible POV in the Brodeur image with "known for his puckhandling skills". Although as hockey fans, we would almost all agree on this, the non-hockey fan would simply not know. I remember when I put List of Vancouver Canucks players up for FLC, I got a similar comment with Todd Bertuzzi and "Todd Bertuzzi became known as one of the NHL's premier power forwards". One of those things that doesn't hurt to include, but could hurt if left out. You could always just snag one of the references from the Brodeur article, as there are a few in there. Aside from that, I fixed the dab/dio issue with José Théodore...GoodDay would be so impressed :) – Nurmsook! talk... 03:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done--Maxim(talk) 23:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing, I think the key should be moved to before the table, like we have on most other FL articles. This would improve the flow, as the reader won't have to skip the table to get to the key, and then go back to the table. Instead, they would read the key first, then continue on to the table. – Nurmsook! talk... 17:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
LarRan moved it for some reason. I've a partial revert of that.--Maxim(talk) 23:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment original author removed the {{when}} tags I added to sentences which need dates, rather than addressing the problem. Prose isn't great. Modest Genius talk 23:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's the list, there's no point in {{when}} tags, they mess up with the flow. I've asked Risker to go over the prose, although she is busy atm, this is not a huge article, so she'll probably handle within a few days.--Maxim(talk) 23:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yet another comment I'd like to see a bit added to the lead about why a goalie scoring is so rare and notable. Sure it's obvious to us, but it wouldn't hurt for those not familiar with hockey. -- Scorpion0422 00:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, now the hard part is framing the sentences so that they are not POV or ambiguous:
  • "Scoring a goal into the opposing team's net is very challenging for goaltenders, since it must be scored into an empty net, six feet wide, from the other end of the rink, with sufficient trajectory and speed to beat the defenders. A goaltender cannot cross the centre red line, thus they cannot get close enough to the opposing goaltender to have a chance to score when the net is not empty." Issues:
  • "very challenging" I understanding that it is hard to say why goaltenders' goals are rare without some slightly non-neutral language, so I will let "challenging" go. However, can we do away with "very"?
  • "must be scored into an empty net"—The way this worded, it sounds like a rule that goaltenders can only score into an empty net.
  • "centre red line, thus they cannot get close enough" Comma to semicolon, comma after thus. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All fixed.--Maxim(talk) 01:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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