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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of endemic birds of Borneo/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of endemic birds of Borneo edit

List of endemic birds of Borneo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): MeegsC (talk) 12:31, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is my first attempt at a featured list. I've been working on this one for a few months, since finding it on the WP:BIRDS project list of articles in need of improvement, and I think it's ready. We have very few featured lists in the project (and even fewer so thoroughly sourced), and I'd like to help change that. MeegsC (talk) 12:31, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quick driveby comments: the table needs colspan and rowspan tags (see MOS:DTAB) for accessibility, and the images need alt text (it can be basic, e.g. "drawing of a green bird"). Also note that you seem to be recreating {{IUCN statuses}} with an infobox, which is fine but just letting you know the option is there. --PresN 16:05, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PresN thanks for pointing me to the IUCN statuses template; I didn't know about that one! I've added alt text for all pictures. I'm not clear on where to add the COLSPAN/ROWSPAN tags. Do I need to add those (i.e. |colspan=1 rowspan=1) for each element? Or can I do it once for the table? MeegsC (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just went ahead and did it as it was quicker than trying to explain (mainly because I mucked it up in the first place by saying "colspan" when I meant "colscopes", e.g. scope="col". That said, now that's done, it is strange that the first column, aka the "main" column, is the "taxon order" instead of the bird name. Taxon order just doesn't seem like the most important thing here; this may be because I don't fully understand it- it seems to just be the ordering that some list put bird genera/species in? E.g. they wrote out the tree of birds and flattened it into an excel table? I don't see how that ordering adds anything to the reader, it seems entirely arbitrary which order/family etc. was listed first, none of which is present in this table anyways. And if it's a fairly arbitrary ordering, even if helpful to bird researchers, to have, then I don't think it should be the primary column in the table even if that's what the table's default sort is. I'd expect the birds' names to be first, even if the table isn't default sorted alphabetical.
A second new point- the EBA column only has one possible value in this list (since Borneo only has one EBA), but I was surprised to see that as I expected to find the secondary EBA ids in that column too. That would make it more useful here; I'm not sure if you were just going for consistency with other lists and it's only odd because of the size of the country. --PresN 03:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PresN, thanks for fixing the table. I'll have a look, so I know what to do in the future. As to why the list is in taxonomic order, that's standard for lists of birds. Those who are interested in birds are surely the most likely to use this list, and they're well-used to seeing things in this order; it's how all field guides are arranged, for example. Those who aren't used to this order can easily sort it by common or scientific name instead. That's why I used sortable columns. As for the EBA column, there are actually two values in the list; one of the secondary EBAs is there as well. (The other EBAs don't house species endemic only to Borneo.) I thought that readers might be interested to know which of Borneo's endemics could be found in the designated EBA(s), but if you and others think that it's extraneous information, I can certainly remove it. MeegsC (talk) 09:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment: Source 9 is probably going to cause issues because it's a Google Docs spreadsheet with no clear author. Is there another source with the same information, or is there some way to prove that this source is reliable and not just a random Google Doc? RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RunningTiger123, I've linked instead to the page that calls the spreadsheet. It shows the editors, publisher, etc. Would that be sufficient? MeegsC (talk) 16:40, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's better – it makes it clear who the original organization is. I'll try to do a more thorough review later. RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:42, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
RunningTiger123, any chance you might have time to review this for me? I'd really love to know what I've done right and what needs more work. MeegsC (talk) 21:49, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for forgetting about this! To be honest, I don't have a lot of comments – this is in pretty good shape already. Just a few thoughts:
  • Capitalize "The" at the start of bullet points in the section Endemic Bird Areas.
  • I'm not a biology expert by any means, but what is the significance of the "Taxonomic order" column in the table?
  • I've added some notes (footnote indicated in the column header) to explain why taxonomic order is included. Does that help?
  • Yes, it helps a lot; I now understand why that column was included. Thanks! RunningTiger123 (talk) 18:26, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be nice if the IUCN status sorted by most to least threatened instead of alphabetically. That way, it matches the order shown in the key.
  • EBA column does not sort s098 and s099 correctly; it seems to consider them as blank cells, as they are scattered throughout the blank cells instead of being sorted separately.

That's all I've got. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:58, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks RunningTiger123. I just spent an interesting half hour learning all about sorting columns; I didn't know such things were possible! I think I've addressed all of your concerns.

Support – RunningTiger123 (talk) 18:26, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment "The following list is" is outdated wording. This could be a note for the first column or simply reworded into something like: "The International Ornithologists' Union provides a taxonomic order for the 56 endemic birds of Borneo based on x". That would work too. Mattximus (talk) 16:29, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mattximus I thought that was only for the lede! I've modified this to put it as a note for the Taxonomic Order column. Can you please have another look at tell me if this suffices? MeegsC (talk) 20:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments
  • "montane birds could move lower" - is there a wikilink that could cover what a "montane bird" is (because I have no idea, personally)?
    I've changed this to "so montane birds (those generally restricted to the slopes of mountains) could move lower"... Does that work?
  • " The vulnerable grey imperial pigeon" - is there a way to break up this sea of blue? At first glance I thought "vulnerable" was part of the species name
    I've changed this to "The grey imperial pigeon, which the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) considers to be a vulnerable species, is found on a dozen or so of the islands" Does that make it clearer?
  • "Hill dipterocarp forest" - link to explain this (seemingly) rather technical term?
    I've linked dipterocarp. Is that enough? Or does it need further explanation? These trees are a hugely important part of the Bornean plant community.
  • "particularly bamboo grovesLowland" - seems to be some punctuation and spacing missing here
  • Actually the "Lowland" bit got pasted in by mistake with a reference. Thanks for catching it!
ChrisTheDude, I was asked by another reviewer to add information about the threats Bornean endemics face, and then to break the (now too large) former lede into several text sections. Do the changes I've made still meet with your approval? MeegsC (talk) 21:48, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, still looks OK to me :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:16, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aa77zz edit

The article looks in good shape. I'm struck by how few photographs there are - even for some species that are of Least Concern and presumably relatively common.

  • Why are 5 secondary EBAs described in detail in the EBA section of the article when only one (s098) is mentioned in the table?
    Secondary EBAs include those which contain a single endemic species, or species whose ranges are not entirely restricted to that area. Three of the five secondary EBAs found in Borneo fall into the latter category. The species found on those islands are also found on several Philippine islands, so aren't endemic to Borneo. But those EBAs qualify as "belonging" to Borneo. I did realise that I forgot to mark s099 for the black-browed babbler though, so thanks for that!
  • Links are needed for Borneo peat swamp forests and Kerangas forest. I notice that in the article peatswamp is written as one word but the use of two separate words appears to be more common. Wiki also has an article peat swamp forests.
    Linked those two and changed the spelling of peatswamp (though both the field guides used as refs use a single word there!).
  • The threats to these endemic forest species and the loss of habitat should be mentioned in the article. Some of the lowlands are being deforested - I notice that there is a wiki article Deforestation in Borneo. Are the montane species less threatened? Are some of the larger species also hunted for food? These articles may be useful:
    • Curran, L.M.; Trigg, S.N.; McDonald, A.K.; Astiani, D.; Hardiono, Y.M.; Siregar, P.; Caniago, I.; Kasischke, E. (2004). "Lowland forest loss in protected areas of Indonesian Borneo". Science. 303 (5660): 1000–1003. doi:10.1126/science.1091714. PMID 14963327.
    • Helms, J.A.; Woerner, C.R.; Fawzi, N.I.; MacDonald, A.; Juliansyah; Pohnan, E.; Webb, K. (2018). "Rapid response of bird communities to small-scale reforestation in Indonesian Borneo". Tropical Conservation Science. 11: 1940082918769460. doi:10.1177/1940082918769460.
    • Phillips, Victor D. (1998). "Peatswamp ecology and sustainable development in Borneo". Biodiversity & Conservation. 7 (5): 651–671. doi:10.1023/A:1008808519096.

- Aa77zz (talk) 09:37, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

AA77zz, I've added a bit about deforestation and palm oil plantations—by far the biggest threats to Borneo's endemics—and linked to the Deforestation in Borneo article. Hunting isn't a major problem. Trapping for the caged-bird trade is definitely a problem for some of Borneo's birds, but not its endemics. Can you take a look and see if I've fixed everything you pointed out? MeegsC (talk) 17:19, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The additions looks good. - Aa77zz (talk) 13:22, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first 4 paragraphs of the article form a wall of text that is too long and detailed to act as a lead to the article. (a lead is specified in the Featured list criteria). I suggest you add a short lead and then break up the existing text with headers. - Aa77zz (talk) 13:22, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aa77zz, I've created a shorter lede and broken the former lede into a couple of text sections. Does this meet with your approval? MeegsC (talk) 18:29, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Nicely done. - Aa77zz (talk) 07:10, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed; promoting. --PresN 19:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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