Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of University of Central Florida alumni/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Geraldk 19:47, 21 October 2009 [1].

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List of University of Central Florida alumni

Nominator(s): Scpmarlins (talk) 05:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• Featured list candidates/List of University of Central Florida alumni/archive1

I am nominating this for featured list because after considerable work I believe that it meets all featured list criteria. Work that needs to be done will be done quickly and fully to fulfill any concerns that arise. Scpmarlins (talk) 05:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment "This list of University of Central Florida alumni includes graduates" Featured lists don't start like this anymore; see recently promoted lists, such as List of alumni of Jesus College, Oxford: Law and government, for examples of more engaging lead sentences. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The lead has been rewritten. --Scpmarlins (talk) 16:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved issues from Bencherlite

Oppose This list falls significantly short of current standards, I'm afraid, but is on the right lines. Firstly, I'm worried that the list is far too close to its main source. done 6 dablinks need fixing The names shouldn't sort by first name, but by surname. Use {{sortname}} - I've done "Basketball" for you, to show you how it works. The names shouldn't be in bold - see MOS:BOLD The names should either be links to articles rather than plain text. If they're notable enough to have an article, write it then add them to the list. If they're not notable in Wikipedia terms, don't mention them in the list. Yes I know it's a lot of work, but that's why it's difficult to write a university alumni list - there's so much more work involved behind the scenes than writing some other types of lists. The "Notability" and "Reference" columns should not be sortable. The images all need to have alt text added. done "A "—" indicates that the year of graduation is unknown." - Put this at the start, not the end of the list. I'd suggest using a "?" instead, as a dash suggests "did not graduate", not "graduated but we don't know when". This sentence shouldn't be in bold either. I experimented with using a "?" and just leaving the respective boxes blanks, but ultimately felt that "-" was the best alternative. It is explained to the reader that it "indicates that the year of graduation is unknown."--Scpmarlins (talk) 01:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC) Don't use "&" in titles. What's the source for "Alumni Status is open to all graduates of the University of Central Florida, and all former students of UCF who regularly matriculated and left the university in good standing"? Is that a UCF definition? If so, it needs a source. (Are there in fact any non-graduates in the list?) Does "Status" need to have a capital letter? Why is the phrase in a textbox? The lead needs to tell me something about the people in the list, not just a bit about UCF. The list only needs to be in the UCF alumni category, not the main UCF category. Needs a good copy edit e.g. done "UCF's First Rhodes Scholar" - "First" should not have a capital letter (although I doubt this person is notable) "Pulitzer Prize Winner" - "Winner" should not have a capital letter. (Which prize? When? More details where possible, please.) done "Famed Commodities Trader" - exactly the same wording as the alumni website, for one thing; too many capital letters; and "famed" is a POV description. Sentence fragments e.g. "Current WNBA player." should not have a full stop at the end. done Images - generally, forcing the image sizes (e.g. 130px) is not recommended; I'd suggest removing the size specification and letting the images be at default sizes. During a test edit I did remove the image sizes from the images and the size then completely threw off the symmetry of the tables. In their current form, the images line-up with the respective sections and just look neat and clean which is diminished when the size limit is removed.--Scpmarlins (talk) 01:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC) More generally, I'd like to know what steps you have taken to see that the list "comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items" in the words of the criteria - I'm not expecting the list to have every notable person who's ever attended UCF, but some idea of the work you've done to track down names would be helpful. Besides using the the main athletics site which has the most complete list of university alumni, I utilized a list (not available since the site was redesigned, can be seen in earlier edits) that was by the alumni association, as well as lists compiled by the individual colleges. I also browsed through alumni newsletters, alumni "hall of fame" introductions and performed general Google and Bing keyword searches to try and locate as many notable alumni as possible.--Scpmarlins (talk) 01:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC) Citations shouldn't use ALL CAPS even if the website does. Citations of websites should give the page date/year where one is available, not just the accessdate. done 5 references to IMDB, which is not a reliable source. Sources: not otherwise checked. Images: not checked. That's all for now. BencherliteTalk 20:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC) I have addressed the majority of your concerns, and am still currently working on a few others.--Scpmarlins (talk) 23:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC) Thanks for acting so promptly, looking much better already. Look forward to seeing what you do next! BencherliteTalk 08:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC) Can it please be elaborated what needs to be further done to the article. Thanks! --Scpmarlins (talk) 22:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) The alt text is a good start, but needs some work. Per WP:ALT#Verifiability, when describing images in alt text, don't add things that cannot be verified by looking only at the image. Therefore, names and other proper nouns should not be used in alt text. done Please review basic capitalization rules. Common nouns such as "director" and "comedian" are not capitalized unless they begin a fragment in the notes or begin sentences. done "Class Year"-->Class year Dabomb87 (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC) done

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• What makes the following sites reliable? done
  • http://www.fanbase.com/Paul-Miranda done
  • http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/military-research-building-started-1.1773456 done
  • http://www.infosportinc.com/ericvasquez.html done
• Newspapers are italicized. You can fix this by changing "publisher" to "work" in the cite templates. done Dabomb87 (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The above suggestions have been completed.--Scpmarlins (talk) 01:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• What makes http://aricalmirolaracing.com/ a reliable source? Dabomb87 (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC) done
• The reference titled "Atari Bigbi Biography" (58) redirects to the home page of the Packers website. That link needs to be fixed to go to the specific page. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC) done

• Can someone please provide further guidance as what needs to be done to the article. All previous suggestions have been completed with little feedback.--Scpmarlins (talk) 15:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the delay in getting back to you; I'll look at what's been done later on (after work). Bencherlite^Talk 16:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
    • Sorry from me to. I'll try to revisit tomorrow or the day after. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:53, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

More resolved issues from Bencherlite

;Further comments from Bencherlite The alt-text still doesn't meet standards, despite your attempts. I think the clearest way is to go through each one, since I don't think you get the concept. done "The main building of the FAIRWINDS Alumni Center at UCF against the backdrop of a bright blue sky." Describe the building, don't tell us what it is or where it is. done "The UCF Library in the background with the Reflection Pond, with its fountains at full stride, in the foreground." The same. A non-expert doesn't know what the Reflection Pond is, either. done "A building, and the Reflection Pond, with its fountain at full sprint, lit up at night." Same points as before. done "A NASA astronaut posing for her official picture in full regalia." Describe her, describe the uniform. You cannot tell from the image that it's an official picture, so don't mention that. done "Official Florida Senate Picture of Lee Constantine." Again, describe him, and don't tell us it's an official Florida Senate photo. done "Miss America 2004 posing in a white gown outside." Describe her; at least you've made a partial attempt to describe what she's wearing. Don't tell us she's Miss America 2004, since you can't tell that from the image. done "An actress poses for a photograph." Describe her. done "A football player stretching his legs on field." At least this is on the right lines, but describe him, describe what he's wearing. Remember that football has different meanings in your country and mine. done "A football players looking towards his sideline." As above (and correct the typo). done "Football player signing autographs." Well, I have the benefit of sight and cannot see any autograph signing going on, nor can I tell from looking at the image that he's a football player. done "A pitcher getting ready to deliver a pitch during a baseball game." Probably the best yet, but perhaps a bit more description. done "NASCAR Driver posing besides his race car." Describe him, describe the car. done The two images in {{University of Central Florida Athletics}} need alt text. done Hopefully done in the right manner this time around. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) "numerous officers in the armed forces through a unique partnership with the United States Military". This source doesn't seem to support the claim: it refers to a building opening in 2010, making it difficult to have "numerous alumni" through this route already; I can't see that it mentions a unique partnership. done The original source was better and has been replaced. Also added a reference to UCF ROTC's programs being amongest the top 15% nationally. Students who graduate ROTC are commissioned officers. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) Why mention James Best in the lead if he was not an alumnus? done That was an oversight on my part. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) I think that it would look better if the class years were centered, not just the dashes. done Agreed. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) There are still several uses of fanbase.com - is it a reliable source? done Found to be un-reliable, all sources subsequently replaced. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) This previous version of the page had more names on it that have now been removed. I won't quibble with some of them, and for other (e.g. the business section) I can't tell at a quick glance how notable they are, but shouldn't more of the names in the sports sections have been kept, with articles written about them? To give some examples that would all appear to pass WP:ATHLETE, given the list's description of them: Amy Allmann "Goalkeeper for the 1991 Women's World Cup champion" done Kenny Clark "Former NFL wide receiver for the Minnesota Vikings" done Elgin Davis "Former NFL running back for the New England Patriots" done Bernard Ford "Former NFL wide receiver for the Houston Oilers and Dallas Cowboys" done Karen Richter "Former National Goalkeeper of the Year and W-League player." Really unable to find much material about. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) Bennie Shaw "Former NBA shooting guard for the Milwaukee Bucks. First NBA draft pick in UCF history when he was selected in the ninth round by the Milwaukee Bucks in 1976." He never played a regular season game so I believe that this negates his notability. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) Bob Spitulski "Former NFL linebacker for the Seattle Seahawks" done Kim Wyant "Former U.S. National Team Goalkeeper and W-League player." Really unable to find much material about. --Scpmarlins (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) This issue goes to the comprehensiveness of the list. I'm not saying that you should prove the negative of showing that no notable person has been omitted, but that these eight names could be removed from the list causes me some concern. That's all for now. BencherliteTalk 11:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) I'll get working on this right away.--Scpmarlins (talk) 11:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Support I think this is good enough now, after a lot of hard work from Scpmarlins. I admit that I was sceptical whether this list could be got up to speed in time, but I'm pleased to have been proved wrong. Bencherlite^Talk 15:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comments I'm still concerned at the number of entries that do not have a date of graduation. There are really no sources anywhere that say when a former NASA Flight Center Director graduated? A few additional comments:

One of the problems I encountered when trying to attain graduation dates was that many of those for which I could not find dates for either attended graduate school at UCF which makes it much harder to get or assume the year, or I could not find a date of birth which also makes it harder to approximate or search for the year as UCF does not offer a general Alumni directory. I was able to find class years for seven more alumni. --Scpmarlins (talk) 18:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you have sources for those new dates? Bencherlite^Talk 19:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Overlooked information that was already in the original references were the sources. Also Alan Gooch was moved from the 'civic' section to the 'business' section, an overlooked misplacement. Also in the place of Kenny Clark, Travis Fisher, and Elton Petterson it is stated that they were drafted senior year, which means their class year corresponds to their year of draft. --Scpmarlins (talk) 20:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

• • The presence of NASA scientists might suggest a renaming would be necessary for the first section. Maybe 'Civic, Education, and Science'? done

Agreed. --Scpmarlins (talk) 18:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

• • You mention in the lead that military officers have graduated from UCF, yet there are no military officers in the list itself. Surely there have been some notable military officers that graduated from UCF?

UCF's ROTC program began in 1987 and has only blossomed this decade. There are over 230,000 officers in the U.S. Military and I don't believe that being just an officer makes them notable for inclusion. --Scpmarlins (talk) 18:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

• • As a research university that has made significant contributions in science, there must be notable scientists who have attended central florida. Your list has none, except the NASA people. A list of this sort is by nature incomplete, but there are some srious gaps here that concern me.

Addressed. --Scpmarlins (talk) 18:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

How? I don't see any more scientists on the list. Bencherlite^Talk 19:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed the blurb temporarily from the introduction until I can find more people that fit the parameter so that it is not misleading. Not to mention, with the same point as above, that just because the university has made "notable research contributions" does not mean that it has a wide array of notable alumni. Contributions, though significant in perspective and deed, are not always significant enough to become widely known nor is the scientist.--Scpmarlins (talk) 20:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Geraldk (talk) 16:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Nonetheless, for a university of its size, there are glaringly few non-athletic alumni. It looks to me like athletes make up about half of this list, which is a marked contrast with current FL alumni lists like List of Brigham Young University alumni and List of Georgia Institute of Technology alumni. Of course those schools are a little older, so their lists will naturally be longer, but the proportions seem off. Even alumni referenced in the main article on the University seem to be missing from the list. Where are the people who held leadership positions in the Department of Defense, the Army Corps of Engineers, Bright House Networks, and Raymond James Financial? I understand that the presence of research does not guarantee many notable graduates, but none at all? None of these guys are notable? What about the members of Sawyer Brown referenced in the famous alumni tab here? As I said, while alumni lists are by nature incomplete, I'm still concerned that the list needs more broad research to identify alumni in a couple of fields. Geraldk (talk) 22:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Those lists had already been considered when producing the original list. The members of Sawyer Brown, along with others in the corporate realm were included in previous revisions of the list (view history), but were removed because of red links. As for the science alumni, none of them meet the guidelines set out in WP:Notability, and would you like every Ph.D. student who did something science related to be included? "for a university of its size, there are glaringly few non-athletic alumni," more than two-thirds of the university's degrees have been awarded since 1995, and as recently as the turn of the millennium enrollment was less than 1/2 of the 52,000 it is today. For a 40 year old university (first classes held in 1968) that was not widely known for anything in particular until the 1990's the school has many notable alumni. --Scpmarlins (talk) 23:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

If an alumnus is notable, he/she should not be excluded from this list just because there is not an article about him/her. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not only the fact that they have no article, one can be created, but some of them are just not notable. I have added about 10 names to the list, none of them are athletic in nature, all to corporate and sciences. As far as the list being disproportionately athletic that just isn't true. There are 49 athletic alumni listed, and 46 in all other categories. --Scpmarlins (talk) 00:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Respect for the speed with which you are trying to address concerns. I'm not going to oppose based on the discussion above, because after some digging I think you've gotten the majority of obviously notable alumni. But I hope the UCF wikiproject will continue to research and add non-athletic alumni to the list as much as possible. Geraldk (talk) 01:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely.--Scpmarlins (talk) 02:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Share some concerns about length and sport/other ratio (49 athletic vs 46 all others is still disproportionate unless half of all graduates are in athletics). The tone of the lead reads like a prospectus. Is there anything negative to say, or even neutral :-)? The count of 167,000 alumni should really be an "As of 2009" rather than "Since founding" (which is redundant) because it will date quickly. However, there's an "as of" earlier in the lead so this might require some rearrangement/rewording. See WP:DATED for advice. The last lead paragraph is pure puff and doesn't really belong in an article about alumni--it should go IMO. The ucf.edu external link doesn't meet our WP:EL policy for this list and the Commons link isn't relevant to this list either. The Alumni external link needs fixed up to the new site (or a suitable page within). The three photos of buildings aren't relevant to this list and should be replaced by one good person photo. Colin°^Talk 20:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
  • It occurred to me overnight that a high ratio of athletes to non-athletes in this list is probably not surprising in a university if 2/3rds of the degrees have been awarded in the last 15 or so years. An athlete/sportsman can become "notable" relatively quickly through playing in professional sports, an area dominated by young people; his/her contemporary who goes into science, the arts, education, business etc will probably take longer to achieve the necessary prominence. Bencherlite^Talk 06:26, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
• Weak support I noticed the changes made following Colin's comments, which have improved it, although it's still a bit showy. Although this type of list isn't my cup of tea, it appears to tick all the boxes at WP:FL?. My only concern is wording such as "Current NFL cornerback". That can date easily and the list may not be maintained to reflect any changes, hence only my weak support. Nice work otherwise Matthewedwards :  Chat  01:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Late to the party comments Not sure we need three images of UCF itself when this list is ostensibly about the alumni, particularly images like that of the FAIRWIND center which are not discussed in any way at all in the article. done I quite like the subtle introduction to the foundation year (initial enrollment etc) but I do think it would be more useful to be ultra-specific as to when it was founded. done "best known for her role" says who? done Stott needs her NASA linking, for consistency. done "soccer star" bit journalistic for me. Star is inherently Pov. done Reference should be Reference(s) since many have more than one. done Be consistent throughout - the tables are sortable so overlinking is fine. Just make sure you do it (a) all the time or (b) never. done Blair Witch - in the lead you mention only Myrick, but in the table you credit both Myrick and Sanchez equally. done "Champion woman's soccer player" - what does that mean? done "for soccer's" this is not needed, just "for" is fine. done The Rambling Man (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

• Class year sorting (in Safari) results in four different results (when it should be just two).

How do I fix this? --Scpmarlins (talk) 21:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps use the {{sort}} template or give Dabomb87 a shout as he's a master of tabular sortability magic. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorting fixed. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

• Prose looks fine. I made a few minor tweaks to the lead. I wonder why the pics can't be lined up horizontally instead of vertically between the tables? This is a major point that might be generally applicable to FLs. It's great not to have to worry about squeezing pics in to the right of the tables, but I don't like the huge white gaps. Tony (talk) 12:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Geraldk (talk) 20:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.