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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of St. Louis Cardinals managers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 01:17, 4 November 2009 [1].

List of St. Louis Cardinals managers

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Nominator(s): LAAFan 01:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I feel this article meets criteria, following the format of List of Kansas City Royals managers, a FL. Thanks for comments in advance.LAAFan 01:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • First four sentences are clunky and make the prose a bit dull.
  • Is there a link for National League?
  • "the then St. Louis Browns " hyphen missing somewhere here?
  • "... different managers for the Cardinals. Ned Cuthbert became the first manager of the then St. Louis Browns in 1882, serving for one season. Charles Comiskey became the first manager who held the title of manager ..." manager is used four times in three sentences. I know it's about managers but can we think of a better rewording?
  • You mean 19th, not 18th century.
  • I think you may wish to pipe link "Ted Sullivan (baseball)"
  • "The lowest percentage was Arlie Latham in " Arlie Latham is not a %.
  • And "3" should be three there.
  • Pre 1900 ought to be Pre-1900
  • But having said that, I don't know why we've split the list at all.
    Split the list because the playoff appearances pre 1900 are not recognized by Major League Baseball as official, so combining would make the total list inaccurate.--LAAFan 14:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I missed your response here to a similar comment when I posted a similar comment below, but:
    1. The pre-1900 "unofficial" playoff information is already listed in the same columns as the official post-1900 playoff information, which seems just as misleading as any combination
    2. All the pre-1900 playoff appearances are from the team's time in the AA. Which argues perhaps for a split at the point where the team joined the NL.
    But I think better than splitting the list would be to just footnote the pre-1900 playoff appearances to note the difference, as in other manager lists. Rlendog (talk) 15:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why doesn't Jimmy Williams have an article or redlink?
  • " led the then St. Louis Browns to a championship in 1886" hyphen somewhere here again and which championship?
  • In second table, check sorting of columns like PL.
  • Could probably use an "Statistics correct as of..." date somewhere here.

The Rambling Man (talk) 11:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - 2 quick ones, I may have more later:

  • What is the purpose of splitting at 1900, especially since it breaks up Patsy Tebeau's tenure and since a more significant breakpoint (if one is needed) would seem to be the team's joining the National League in 1892?
  • The article mentions that the team is currently a National League team but does not mention that the team used to be member of the American Association during the period covered by the article. Rlendog (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I went through the pre-1900 list and had a few more comments:

  • I think a "Games Managed" column is essential. I realize that the KC Royals list doesn't have one but I think this is more important for older teams, when more games ended without a win or loss. For example, Charles Comiskey managed about 20 more games than would be inferred by just adding up wins and losses.
  • Tommy McCarthy's 2nd term in 1890 (4 wins, 1 loss) seems to be missing.
  • I would recommend cross checking the Baseball-Reference stats against another source, such as Retrosheet. For 1891, B-R shows Cominskey's managerial record as 86-52 but the team's record as 85-51.[2] Retrosheet shows Comiskey's managerial record as 85-51 for that season,[3] which seems more accurate.
  • A optional item, but I would prefer to see a section where the complete St. Louis records for managers with multiple terms is shown. As it stands now, there is no way to easily see the full managerial records for Comiskey, Schoendienst, Southworth, etc, which I personally think is important. But most of the managerial FLs lack this item, so I would view this as optional.
  • Another optional item, but I would delete the totals from the tables. I realize that some FLs have them and some don't. Personally, I think they are unlikely to updated regularly once the attention of FLC ends, and it will be difficult to tell whether or not they are up to date. So the information is likely to become incorrect over time, and I am not sure it adds much even if it is correct. It would be great if Wikipedia had an autosum function. But again, that is an optional item in my view. Rlendog (talk) 14:39, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – These are on top of the many issues raised above, some of which are still unresolved. For example, the Ted Sullivan link is still not piped.

  • What is citing the postseason records?
  • TRM mentioned issues with sorting in the second table already, but I want to clarify that all of the playoff-related columns are affected by them.
  • "with Southworth winning two." This is an awkward sentence structure; a better option would be "; Southworth won two."
  • "the manager in the 1898 season with a percentage of .260." Comma after "season". Giants2008 (17–14) 21:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – I will most likely add more later: --TorsodogTalk 17:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I know a few Cards managers have won Manager of the Year. These managers should be noted in the list. (See: List of Chicago Cubs managers for example)
  • I think the lead could be bulked up a bit. Almost all of the managerial history after 1900 is summed up with one sentence ("Since then the management has become more stable, and the Cardinals have won 10 World Series championships"). Not only is this not enough prose to describe more than a century of history, but it doesn't seem to be true. For example, the team had 6 different managers from 1977 to 1980. That doesn't seem all that "stable", IMO.
  • What is the status of the team's current manager? What kind of contract does he have with the team? When does it expire?
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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