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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Six Nations Championship hat-tricks/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Six Nations Championship hat-tricks edit

List of Six Nations Championship hat-tricks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): NapHit (talk) 12:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it is very close to meeting the criteria. The Six Nations is about to finish, so what better way to celebrate than by getting this list to Featured standard. I currently have a list here, but as it already has three supports and no outstanding comments, this nom should be ok. Cheers NapHit (talk) 12:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (includes source review)

  • "At that time a try by itself wasn't worth any points," avoid contraction
  • "George Lindsay scored five tries in Scotland's 4–0 win over Wales in 1887. This is most tries scored in a single match," could you find a way to link both sentences?
  • Not obligatory, but images could have alt text.
  • Sources are fine, no real signs of close paraphrasing. No dead or dab links.
  • For consistency purposes, are the general sources 'ESPN Scrum' like Ref 1?
  • Ref 5 was published on 8 March 1999 Lemonade51 (talk) 17:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thannks for the comments @Lemonade51:, I've addressed them all. NapHit (talk) 18:49, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - on style, comprehensiveness and sourcing, can't seem to spot any howlers. Lemonade51 (talk) 15:05, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Small point - should the lead mention that rugby union is the sport involved? The link to the Six Nations will lead readers to discover the sport, but it might be worth making it explicit in the article? --Bcp67 (talk) 21:11, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A very good point! Added the link, thanks! NapHit (talk) 11:47, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Shudde I have to oppose for now. I have a number of comments, but my oppose is mainly due to the first sentence:

Comments from Shudde
  • "Since the inception of the Home Nations Championships in 1883, which became the Five Nations with the addition of France in 1930 and the current Six Nations Championship in 2000 with the addition of Italy, over 40 Rugby union players have scored three tries or drop goals (a hat-trick) in a single match."
    • There is one serious problem, France joined the Home Nations Championship in 1910 (so it became the Five Nations) but were then ejected from the tournament from 1932 until 1939 due to allegations of professionalism. They rejoined, but the tournament did not resume until after the Second World War. Considering the importance of this, I worry about the sourcing of the rest of the list (hence my oppose). Please source everything, and double check every statement is supported by its source.
    • It's also not clear what a hat-trick is, "... scored three tries or drop goals (a hat-trick) in a single match" -- this reads as though scoring a try and two drop-goals is a hat-trick. So how about "... scored three tries or three drop goals (a hat-trick) in a single match."
    • "Rugby" should really not be capitalised unless part of a proper noun (so Rugby Football Union, Rugby school etc).
  • I do not like the fact that tries and drop-goals have been conflated together the way you've done here. I notice that this was bought up by Nergaal (talk · contribs) at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Rugby Union World Cup hat-tricks/archive1. Joseph2302 also seemed to think this was strange. I know that it was suggested by another user that you add drop-goals, but I think most rugby followers would expect a hat-trick to exclusively refer to tries. I can live with both being listed, but can drop-goals be separated out into their own table? The two achievements aren't really comparable, and we seem to be implying that they are by listing them together here.
  • The prose needs a bit of a copy-edit, and I think some of the statements are unclear. For example:
    • "George Lindsay scored five tries in Scotland's 4–0 win over Wales in 1887, the most tries scored in a single match." -- You mean the most tries scored by a single player in a match right? There have been matches with more than four tries scored many many times.
    • "Lescarboura's hat-trick against England in 1985 is the only time the feat has been achieved with the match ending in a draw." -- again this is a little misleading. His "hat-trick" was in drop-goals, so it's not fair to compare that to tries. Second, at least according to the table, Neil Jenkins scored three drop-goals in Wales' 28 all draw with Scotland in 2001.
    • "Chris Ashton's four tries in 2011 is the most by anyone since 1969." -- Again this could be implied to mean a number of things, including that no player has scored four Six Nations tries (in total) since 1969, rather than no player has scored four tries or more in a single Six Nations match since 1969.
  • I see you have tried to separate out tries and drop-goals in the lead, but I think this could be more clearly done.
  • "Dominguez's hat-trick is the only one by an Italian player in the competition." -- Again we're conflating tries and drop-goals. No Italian has scored a hat-trick of tries right? Maybe this should be explicitly mentioned somewhere.
  • I think the lead could probably be expanded a little bit. There are a number of things that come to mind. If this is a notable achievement we could expand on it without trouble. Charles Wade was an Australian in Brtain studying when he scored his hat-trick, which was on debut and also as a last minute replacement. Jehoida Hodges was a prop who ended up being moved onto the wing (due to an injury) when he scored his hat-trick. Michel Crauste is, as far as I can tell, the only forward to score a hat-trick of tries while actually playing in the forwards! These things are all examples of the kind of interesting pieces of information that could be added to the lead.
  • I know that you've followed the same format as for List of Rugby World Cup hat-tricks, but I find some of the table heads and column headings a bit strange. I can live with most of them, but can we change "Hat-tricks by national team" to something clearer. At the moment it reads like the national team was scoring the hat-trick when it is an individual achievement. I can't think what would be both clear and concise however (I'll mull this over and hopefully think of something). It'd also be good in this table to separate out tries and drop-goals (and have a "total" section).

I think thats it from me. Sorry to oppose but some of the problems are too serious (such as the first sentence) for me to do otherwise. -- Shudde talk 09:20, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments @Shudde:, I've addressed nearly all of them I think. Apologies if I haven't. Regarding the extra info, I'm not sure if this would be pushing the boundaries of what s relevant, plus sourcing the Crusate and Hodges points might be problematic. However, I am open to persuasion and maybe it would be a good idea to have a bit more info. Interested to see your responses. Cheers. NapHit (talk) 19:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would definitely not push any boundaries to expand the amount of information on the subject of this list! This is supposed to be a notable topic, so surely there are articles/sources that discuss Six Nations hat-tricks in some detail. I'm asking you to expand it (it's very thin on prose) -- I only offered some suggestions after a very quick google search; who know what a more thorough search could uncover?
  • Again we need to be careful with the prose. You said: "George Lindsay scored five tries in Scotland's 4–0 win over Wales in 1887, the most tries scored by a single player in a match." but this is only for 6N Championship matches, not all internationals (Marc Ellis (rugby)), and definitely not all rugby matches.
  • A number of my comments have not been addressed. I have struck those that have. I have left the prose section un-struck because despite any changes I'm not yet happy with it.
  • I have split the first sentence up and rewritten it a little. Please let me know if you're happy with it. Hopefully this makes the subject of the list clearer (it probably needed to be split into two sentences, one way or another).
Will revisit in a few days. -- Shudde talk 18:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a go at adding some more information and I have tried to tidy the prose up in places @Shudde:, let me know what you think! I'm not sure if you have noticed, but I included the France bit in a footnote. I think I've had a go at doing all your comments now! NapHit (talk) 19:52, 7 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Some comments. Maybe some more later:
  • Yes I noticed the France bit was in a footnote, which is fine by me.
  • The second sentence needs work, the tense is all over the place.
  • It's good to see the lead expanded somewhat
  • I've made some edits. Please check them.
More comments to come. -- Shudde talk 14:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
More comments. From this revision:
  • Shouldn't The Daily Telegraph be just The Telegraph in most of the references? Aren't we referencing the website rather than the print newspaper?
I'm not sure about this. I've always referenced it as The Daily Telgraph, because that is the name of the publication. I'm not sure if that changes depending on whether the article was posted solely on the site or print in as well. NapHit (talk) 21:16, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref [1] doesn't support footnote [A]; it says France were ejected in 1931 not 1932, and does not say when they were readmitted.
  • Ref [2] does support that Italy were admitted in 2000, but does not support the rest of the statement. Ref [1] does that, but it also says that the tournment started in 1882 not 1883. In fact Wade's hat-trick was scored in 1882, so there is obviously a mistake somewhere.
  • Ref [3] supports the information on Wade.
  • Ref [4] does not support that a try meant a "try for goal". It does support that no points were awarded for tries.
  • Ref [5] supports the statement, although is there nothing more recent? That page is over ten years old (the record could theoretically have been overtaken since then).
  • Ref [6] supports the Smith sentence.
  • Ref [7] can't check the reference so will AGF.
  • Ref [8] supports the statement.
  • Ref [9] supports the statement although it is a little out of date.
  • Ref [10] only supports the last part of the statement.
  • Ref [11] I don't know what is going here, but guessing you have mixed up some urls because it links to an Independent article.
  • I would like to see inline citations for the information in the lead that is referenced from the general references. This is a case of WP:INTEGRITY and would make everything much easier to verify. I normally wouldn't worry so much, but there has been issues with sourcing here so I think it would be prudent.
I'm not 100% happy with the prose (especially the second sentence), but would be willing to strike my oppose regarding that. However I'm not happy with the sourcing. I did want things double checked, and I don't think everything was spotted. Can this please be addressed? I'm hoping it's not too hard even if it is a bit tedious. -- Shudde talk 15:25, 8 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again @Shudde:. I think I've addressed all your concerns now. I've gone through all the references and they should be good. I've changed the prose here and there, let me know if it is to your liking. NapHit (talk) 21:16, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have struck my oppose, and will offer my weak support. I still have a few points that may be worth considering:

  • Still not sure about whether it is the Daily Telegraph or Telegraph -- admittedly I took my information from wikipedia (an unreliable source!), but it does say "Telegraph.co.uk is the online version of the newspaper. It uses banner title The Telegraph and includes articles from the print editions of The Daily Telegraph and The Sunday Telegraph, as well as web-only content such as breaking news, features, picture galleries and blogs." which is why I thought Telegraph was more accurate. Something to think about.
  • I have played with the second sentence. But the prose in general could do with a careful read by an uninvolved editor.
  • Still not happy with the headings "Player hat-tricks by their national team" and "Player's hat-tricks by their national team" as I think they read funny. I can't think of a good alternative however!

I do think that this list needs a careful read by some uninvolved editors, but I thank @NapHit: for their hardwork and wish them good luck! -- Shudde talk 16:08, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from MPJ-DK

Figured I'd drop by with my 2 cents worth of comments on this FLC over the next day or so. Side note: I have a Mexican National Women's Championship FLC going on and would appreciate any and all feedback (Not asking for Quid Pro Quo, my review is independent of participation in my FLC). My comments will be split into three sections as listed below. Side note - I have put both this page and the list article on my watch list, I will try to keep an eye on them.  MPJ-US  00:59, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead/Text
  • No where do I see it indicated when the list is accurate "as of"? The general references were accessed on 6 July 2014 and 17 November 2015 respectively, which means they could be out of date since that is quite a long time ago?
Added this above the table. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Oxford University, when he was called" I don't believe that needs the comma?
Removed the comma. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "instated" a term used in Rugby? I have not seen that in general?
Ye I've heard that term used in Rugby and Football before. Fairly common I would say. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "points, but allowed" comma needed here?
Removed. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as a forward for his country," the "for his country" part is redundant, that's implied already
Removed. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • List
  • Tries - Sorts okay across the board, the list itself seems to hit the marks.
  • Drop Goals - Sorts okay across the board, the list itself seems to hit the marks.
  • Multiple Hattricks - Why does this table not sort when the others all sort? Seems inconsistent
Now sortable. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Player hat-tricks by their national team - Sorts okay across the board, the list itself seems to hit the marks.
  • Sources
  • At least one of the sources should link to "ESPN"
I think linking in sources is more personal taste. I don't like doing it myself, and I don't think it is required by any specific guideline. So, I don't think it's really necessary. NapHit (talk) 21:40, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources look like Reliable sources, well formed with all the information that's possible to extract.
  • Checking sources as I review they look like they are covering the various statements.
  • There is no textual source to support that Wade was the first to score a hat-trick - this is where the use of "general sources" really becomes a challenge as we have to judge the lead to figure out "is it in general source" or does it need a specific source?
That match was actually the first ever in the championship and is referenced as such. So, I think that should cover it. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments @MPJ-DK:, I've responded where necessary. NapHit (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Based on the updates I am happy to lend my Support for this fine list. MPJ-US  04:10, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support My only comment would be to add a sourced sentence at the end of the lede that says "The last hat-tricks was achieved by Jonathan Joseph on 14 February 2016" or something similar mentioning the last person and time it was achieved. Otherwise a very well-rounded list! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 04:04, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Gonzo fan2007:, I've added the sentence and a ref. NapHit (talk) 18:16, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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