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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Queens Park Rangers F.C. players/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 20:08, 25 July 2012 [1].

List of Queens Park Rangers F.C. players edit

List of Queens Park Rangers F.C. players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Miyagawa (talk) 14:44, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I think it's now comparable to the FLs on the same subject. This one has been a long time coming - I've been gradually adding the players from Macey's Queens Park Rangers: The Complete Record over a series of months whilst working on other articles. As that book contains records up until 2009, I used the Soccerbase website to over the three seasons since as it had been used in previous player list FLs. The unusual thing to note in this is that Macey includes wartime matches in his tally, and therefore I've included them here (and have included a note on the article to say so). Miyagawa (talk) 14:44, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:58, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "Gareth Ainsworth played for QPR for seven years, in over 150 matches" needs a full stop.
  • The hat note could use some elegant pipe linking so I don't have to see "Category:" or "#..."
  • Suggest you expand football to "association football" in the lead.
  • Think the lead could be expanded a bit, it's two brief paras, I think it should be three decent paras...
  • "more than 1100 players" I won't fall on any sword for it, but in BritEng I'd expect to see that written as 1,100.
  • "Statistics correct as of end of 2010-2011 season" seems oddly positioned, needs an en-dash and is usually indented by one colon in most articles I've seen.
  • "the country/countries" is this necessary, are there any multiple country reps?
  • Struway2 would be upset if somebody didn't say "Pre-1960s" and "Post-1960s", so what about the actual 1960s?
  • How is the position of each player referenced?
  • Current -> current (or just leave it –)
  • Key says Sub, table says Subs.
  • In fact, the "Table headers" (which I imagine would be better as Key) is missing several of the items in the table headings.
  • Check all image captions. Complete sentences need a full stop.
  • Waddock - "1992-1992" ?
  • Our article on Shittu says he's a free agent, not a QPR player.
  • "Official Website" could be "official website".

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the delay in responding, I'd made the changes a week ago and had completely forgotten to leave a note! I've made the changes as suggested - the Waddock thing was because he joined and left during the same year, which I've changed to just "1992" instead. As for the positions, the position numbers for the players are included in the source - based on the typical tactics played then (which was usually a 2-3-5 formation believe it or not) the positions for those players which don't have articles can be determined - however where the articles exist, the positions are based off there (or at least they should be!). Miyagawa (talk) 18:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Arsenikk (talk) 18:57, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments from Arsenikk (talk)
  • Need to place QPR in parenthesis behind the full name to its obvious what it is an abbreviation for, or rephrase the one instance it is used
  • London FA -> London Football Association
  • Comma after 'Alan McDonald'
  • 'third highest' -> 'third-highest'
  • Endash, not hyphen, after 'name' in the key
  • Don't think the key should be in bold
  • Link '1939–40 season' to 1939–40 Football League
  • 'substitute' should link to substitute (association football)
  • Ernie Howe is listed as LB, which is not in the key
  • I find center-aligning text disturbing to read. I know other people might disagree, but especially when there is a flag there it looks messy and slows reading. Esthetically I don't think it is an issue as the row to the left has the same alignment.

Otherwise looks good. Arsenikk (talk) 12:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Made the changes as noted, and aligned the countries column to the left. Miyagawa (talk) 19:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 09:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Any reason why there is no image in the lead?
  • Ideally I'd like it to be one of the players mentioned in the lead, so either Tony Ingham, Alan McDonald, George Goddard, Brian Bedford or Don Givens. I'd even take Marc Bircham due to his uniqueness in the list - but there isn't any free use images avaliable of those on commons (that I'm willing to use - there is one of Alan McDonald but I don't trust that it's free use as there is no source information given). I am still searching for an appropriate image - I had similar problems with the Scottish National team hattricks article and one eventually turned up. I'm thinking that an image of one of the earlier players to make the list or a photo showing multiple players would also be appropriate. Miyagawa (talk) 11:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would align Goalkeeper, Forward, and utility player centrally so its clear those positions apply to both pre and after 1960s
  • Frank McLintock, William Coward and Samuel Abel do not sort correctly by position
  • Fixed - it was actually Warren Neill who was wrong rather than Samuel Abel, and was pushing Abel out of the correct position. Miyagawa (talk) 11:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arsenikk commented that substitute should be linked and you've said you addressed all the issues but I still se it unlinked
  • I misunderstood and linked to it in the lead - its now also linked in the key. Miyagawa (talk) 11:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would add a sentence to the end of the substitute key description stating that substitutes were not introduced in the football league until the 1960s
  • I saw that something along those lines was in the Liverpool table linked to below, so copied it over to this one too. Miyagawa (talk) 11:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also something stating the changes in the names of position, basically add the third bullet under the players section in this list

NapHit (talk) 21:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 22:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "Queens Park Rangers's record appearance-maker is Tony Ingham". Don't think the second s is necessary in "Rangers's".
  • Yep, that is a typo, fixed it and removed the errant "s". Miyagawa (talk) 22:08, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also don't believe List of should be part of the section heading. It's pretty obvious that this is going to be a list, since we say so in the article's title. Just having Players would be better.
  • Can we get the statistics updated through the end of the most recent season, instead of having the list be a year out of date?
  • That's me being a dipstick - it is updated to the end of the current season... I just typed in completely the wrong year! :S I've fixed the year stated. Miyagawa (talk) 22:08, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Publisher of ref 2 shouldn't be italicized, since ESPN Soccernet isn't a printed publication. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Comments -

  • Positions are listed according to the tactical formations that were employed at the time. Thus the change in the names of defensive and midfield reflects the tactical evolution that occurred from the 1960s onwards. Defense instead of defensive. Or defenders and midfielders.
  • I think you should wikilink players' names in the pictures. Just so if someone wants to read about that players they don't have to go through the list to find them.
  • This is a question. Should the name of the article not be List of Queens Park Rangers F.C. players (100+ apearances) or asomething like that. I skipped the hatnote the first time I looked at it and didn't realise the that this list was only 100+ apps. The name of the actual list in the article is List of Queens Park Rangers F.C. players with at least 100 appearances so I think that should be reflected in the article title.
  • I see where you're coming from, but it does seem to be pretty standard naming convention that the plain list articles (with no appearance numbers in the article title) are 100+ appearance articles. But I'm more than happy to change the article title if that's the consensus. Miyagawa (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I personally would prefer specification in the article title. I don't think the average reader would realise it was 100+. Still if that's the common usage (which it seems to be) then it shouldn't hold this article back from FL. Adam4267 (talk) 22:10, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the team's historian lists the statistics from wartime matches. Who is the team's historian.
  • There's only 3 categories. I don't know if that's the correct amount or not but I thought I'd point it out.
  • I've checked the other similar FLs and there doesn't seem to be any missed - in fact a couple of the others only have two. Miyagawa (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It'd be nice to have a picture in the lead. Obviously you said above it was hard to find one of any specific player but maybe there could be something else that could be added.
  • It suddenly occurred to me that Phil Parkes would be unique enough as he's QPR's record appearing goalkeeper - so I've moved his image up to the lead. If I come across anything better later, I'll move him back and put the new image in the lead. Miyagawa (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've never contributed to a FAC on player lists before. I know its common practice to list players' positions depending on which time period they played. But I don't understand it. A half-back is a midfielder and a full-back is a defender Also it didn't all just change over night, for example Mark Lazarus is the first player to come after 1960 that is affected. Firstly he was a right winger so would be the same in pre and post 60s. But he played from 60-67 and is listed as MF. Whereas his teammate Mike Keen (whose page says he's a midfielder) who played until from 59-69 is a half-back. Also an Inside-forward would be obsolete in the mosern game yet is not distinguished in the lists. I don't think this system makes sense at all. I think you have to either distinguish all positions (W, IF, WH/CM, CB,). Or just have D, M and F. Obviously this is just a personal view of the system as a whole nd not in any way a criticism of this list specifically. Thanks Adam4267 (talk) 12:38, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I totally see your point, if the other reviewers are happy with this, then I'm more than happy to go through and standardise the positions to their modern equivalents and change the footnote to reflect this.Miyagawa (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It also says he played as a forward and as a right back for QPR, so I put him down as a utility player. Miyagawa (talk) 21:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note I found an image of one of the red linked players, Jimmy Birch, while looking for something completely different. Fortunately someone had scanned in an entire page of a newspaper from 1920, and so I was able to uploaded it to commons with the full source information. Miyagawa (talk) 18:01, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And a further note to say that I thought I'd de-red link him and create his article, so googled him... and found he already had an article under James Birch. So I've updated the table appropriately. Miyagawa (talk) 18:03, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

- Support (hope this is the right way to do it) Adam4267 (talk) 22:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • That's the plan one day... although considering it took several months of data input to get this one together, it probably won't be anytime soon! I think the managers list will probably be next as it's pretty much already there list-wise and just needs some touch ups. Then I'll probably come back to the players lists, unless the seasons one distracts me again by having the relevent local newspapers going on line or something! Miyagawa (talk) 19:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the key would be better off under a "Key" header, then bringing the "Players" header just above the table.
  • Changed as suggested, if you don't like it I can always revert it anyway. Miyagawa (talk) 19:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Charity/Community Shield" - "FA Charity/Community Shield" is correct.
  • I'm not sure about the inclusion of wartime statistics; I've had a glance at the present player FL lists for English clubs and all of them exclude these on the basis that they're unofficial or that they're counted as friendlies. Do you not see these either of these as being the case for this list?
  • I thought about this quite a bit when I pulled the list together. In the source the players lists at the back automatically includes the wartime league matches and doesn't differentiate between non-wartime and wartime. I had thought that I could go through the season by season stats and remove the wartime matches (which was my intention at the start) but as I worked through the list I came to think that it didn't feel right to be deliberately removing information from the list. I checked the couple of similar FLs that have online sources and it seems that the source themselves doesn't list the wartime matches, and so the figures just weren't available. Of course my personal opinion is that QPR includes them in the records as they won a wartime league during the Second World War... Miyagawa (talk) 19:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a shame Macey doesn't differentiate between wartime and non-wartime stats in the players lists; my York Complete Record volumes have kept the wartime stats completely separate so this was never a problem for me. Since you feel it'd be too much bother removing the wartime apps it won't preclude my support for this nom. Mattythewhite (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think "Statistics correct as of end of 2011–2012 season" would be better off written as a full sentence, and the season range should be 2011–12 per WP:YEAR. So I'd recommend "Statistics are correct as of the end of the 2011–12 season".
  • Kevin Gallen's name needs wikilinking in the image caption.
  • 41 redlinks from 163 seems an awful lot to me. Per WP:WIAFL criterion 5a, there should only be "a minimal proportion" of redlinks so I think this should be brought done quite substantially.
  • I'll give this some work over the weekend and try to reduce the number. Miyagawa (talk) 19:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Walter Barrie ref doesn't need writing out in full.
  • I'm not sure what you mean, Walter Barrie uses citation #4 which is also used by a number of other players.
  • On edit mode it's written out as <ref name=macey548>[[#macey|Macey (2009)]]: p. 548</ref> when it could just be <ref name=macey548/>. Mattythewhite (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • General refs tend to be positioned above Specific refs.
  • Refs 1 and 3 are the same; one needs removing.

Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 19:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. A few additional comments.

  • Going by List of Queens Park Rangers F.C. seasons there are a number of competitions QPR took part in that are not included in the list (according to the key). These are the West London Observer Cup, London Senior Cup, West London Challenge Cup, FA Amateur Cup, Middlesex Challenge Cup, SP Charity Cup, London Challenge Cup, Football League Third Division South Cup, Football League War Cup, League Cup South, Southern Floodlight Cup, Full Members Cup, Mercantile Credit Centenary Trophy and Football League Trophy. Shouldn't apps in these be included in addition to the existing competitions?
  • They were, but I hadn't included them in the key - so I've added the competitions that were included after QPR went professional in 1899.
  • Is Macey the best ref for players who left the club after the book's publishing date of 2009, e.g. Gareth Ainsworth and Lee Cook?
  • I'd missed the Soccerbase references for both of those players, so added them and did a double check to make sure I hadn't missed anyone else.
  • And according to Soccerbase Cook last appeared for QPR in 2011, not 2012.
  • Fixed as noted.
  • Dexter Blackstock is now an Antigua and Barbuda international so his flag needs updating. Also, Stuart Leary was an England under-23 international.
  • Fixed as noted, and updated the numbers in the lead.
  • A few names are missing diacritics, e.g. Alejandro Faurlin -> Alejandro Faurlín and Akos Buzsaky -> Ákos Buzsáky.
  • Fixed, and double checked I hadn't missed anyone else.
  • Martin Rowlands left earlier this year so his years need updating.
  • Updated as noted.

Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 00:27, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • support spot checks checks out okay, prose is not great but decent. the gallery of poor pictures perhaps unneeded. on par with other FL of the kind. Sandman888 (talk) 22:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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