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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Major League Baseball players from Puerto Rico/archive1

< Wikipedia:Featured list candidates‎ | List of Major League Baseball players from Puerto Rico
The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:The Rambling Man 16:29, 29 June 2008 [1].

List of Major League Baseball players from Puerto Rico edit

I began working with this list in January and have personally updated and sourced the status of each player as well as fixing several format issues. Final suggestions from WikiProject Baseball were implemented before this nomination, and some members of said project helped with some grammatical fixes. Further suggestions will be attended as presented here. Thanks for your time. - Caribbean~H.Q. 01:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like it and can tell you've put a lot of effort into it, but it has a lot of problems. Comments: Support, all my concerns have been addressed.

The main problem I found when I read the prose is the african american/afro lantino exclusion issue.

  • Your lead says "After the league decided to allow African American players". This is untrue, but aside from that, you should say when this racist policy disappeared. - It wasn't really untrue but rather badly expressed, I tweaked the sentence, how does it look now?
  • There is an entire article on this issue: baseball color line. In this article I read that this wasn't official policy, but rather an unwritten rule, universally accepted until 1946. - Linked the term, mentioned Jackie Robinson breaking it.
  • Could you tell something about puerto rico's ethnic composition? What's the percentage of Afro-Latino's in Puerto Rico? And what can we say about the ethnic background of the puerto rican mlb players? - As of 2000 it was 80.5 % white, 8.0 % African and 6.8 % a mixture of other races. I don't think we have a census within baseball players, however I know that early in the 20th century Puerto Ricans of direct African or Mulatto descent were poor and practiced baseball and other sports since they were careers that didn't require much education (some direct slave decendands were too poor to afford education). People of direct European heritage used to run haciendas and other kind of bussiness, thus white baseball players were somewhat uncommon back then.
  • Reference one needs a Spanish language tag. - Added.
  • Try 2 reference columns. - Done.
  • Find a solution for the baseball and puerto rico portal tags. They are useful but right now they mess up the layout. - Added a <br clear="all"> template, that should do the trick.
  • Don't use a full space in the attendance number "14, 222" - That was a typo, fixed.
  • Do you claim to have included all mlb players of puerto rican ancestry? If so, you should say "a total number of 214 (randomly picked) players of puerto rican origin have played in the MLB". Otherwise you should add Template:Dynamic list. - Added note; since the list is up to date and rather easily to control due to all the local media surrounding active players and prospects I don't think that the dynamic classification is needed, the list is controlable.
  • Please us en dashes instead of hyphens per WP:DASH. - Done.
  • I think all the players need to be wikilinked (all mlb players are notable, aren't they?), resulting in a high number of red links. I won't oppose your list for it, but I would definitely prefer wikilinking. - It was kind of a mess with all the red links, and the main problem is that some of these players couldn't possibly maintain a article by themselves, particulary those that played only one season.

I haven't checked the sources, but I am impressed by the quantity. I am sure User:GreenJoe will support you for it. :-) Baldrick90 (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Gary King (talk) 00:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I recommend not center-aligning the tables. - Removed the templates.
  • All those year ranges need to use en dashes per WP:DASH - Done.
  • I think the lead should be broken up into at least two paragraphs; it's just one big blob right now. - Divided in two paragraphs.

Gary King (talk) 23:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for both of your reviews, I will begin working with them shortly. Please note that my comments will be written in bold text. - Caribbean~H.Q. 14:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from KV5
  • In the lead, there are no references before the "historical performance" section.
    • "The first player from the island to play in Major League Baseball was Hiram Bithorn in 1942" needs a reference. - Added.' Green tickY from KV5
    • "Including their names in the Major League Baseball Draft is a requisite for first year players born in Puerto Rico, because the league recognizes the island as a jurisdiction within the United States" needs a reference. - Added.' Green tickY from KV5
    • "This measure has led to the local government officially asking exclusion of the draft and help to develop players, in order to reduce the impact of the change in the format of talent development" should have a reference, especially if it is "official," there would be documentation. - Reference added. Its "official" because the goverment sent the Secretary of Sports to attend the case, he is considered the goverment's "official" representative.' Green tickY from KV5
  • "Minor leagues" should be "minor leagues". - Fixed.' Green tickY from KV5
  • In the final paragraph on "historical performance, "Which led to the island's Secretary of Recreation and Sports, to formally ask to Major League's involvement in developing specialized schools to produce more players and other measures to reduce the impact of the draft's implementation." is a sentence fragment and is written as a complete sentence. Green tickY Fixed this myself. (KV5)
  • A section on historical performance should be chronological. Currently, the section on the draft changes of 1989 is after the section on the World Baseball Classic that occurred in 2006. You also have events that occurred in 2003 in that paragraph, after the events of 2006. - Moved paragraph, left the 2003 bit since its directly discussing the stadium.' Green tickY from KV5
  • Years that you link in the lead should go to years in baseball rather than simply the year. Try using the template {{by|YYYY}}, where YYYY is your date. I see an 1898, 1942, 1973 (not linked at all), 2003, 2006... there may be others. Green tickY from KV5'
  • Several of your appositive phrases or words ("During this timeframe...", "Originally...", etc.) are not followed by commas, as they should be. - Done.' Green tickY from KV5
  • United States in the lead should be wikilinked. - Done.' Green tickY from KV5
  • Javy Lopez holds the record for "most home runs connected by a catcher in a single season" – connected should be changed to "hit" or some other, more appropriate word. - Done.' Green tickY from KV5
  • "In 1973, Roberto Clemente became the first player from Puerto Rico and first Latin American to be elected as a member of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum." – needs a quick fix! - Fixed.' Green tickY from KV5
  • "The stadium also hosted twenty-two of the Montreal Expos home games in 2003" – Twenty-two can be written as "22;" only single-digit numbers need to be spelled out. "Of the" can also be removed (redundancy). - Tweaked.' Green tickY from KV5
  • Major Leauge Baseball Draft is linked twice, once in the lead, then again in the final paragraph of the historical section. The second should be removed. - Link removed.' Green tickY from KV5
  • Remove the statement "This is a list...", etc. before the list of players. That's what the lead is for; we already know what we are reading. - This was added per one of the reviews above, not sure if the sentence would make sense if its removed.
    • I don't see that in any of the reviews above, and whether it was suggested or not, it's redundant to have an article entitled "List of players from Puerto Rico...", then have a header that says "List of players", then to write that it is a list of players. I have no problem with the section header, but that italicized sentence has got to go. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
      • Baldrick90 mentioned that we should include the number of players if the list is complete, I have reworded the content to avoid redundancies.
        • Got it. Great. Green tickY by KV5
  • Your tables all use em-dashes to separate the years. As tedious of a process as it is (I understand from my own baseball lists), these have to be changed to en-dashes, per WP:DASH, which states that one role of an en-dash is "[to] convey the sense of to or through, particularly in ranges (pp. 211–19, 64–75%, the 1939–45 war, May–November) and where movement is involved (Dublin–Belfast route). The word to, rather than an en dash, is used when a number range involves a negative value or might be misconstrued as a subtraction (−3 to 1, not −3–1), or when the nearby wording demands it (he served from 1939 to 1941, not he served from 1939–1941)." -'Switched. Green tickY from KV5
  • With that many references, you should definitely make your reference list 2 columns.
Sorry, didn't see above. Two-column refs don't work in my browser (IE7). KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
  • Currently, the table says that Alex Cintron played for the Arizona Diamond Backs. That should be changed to "Diamondbacks." - Corrected.' Green tickY from KV5
  • Every team name should be linked on its first appearance. The Diamondbacks aren't linked at all, and I'm sure there are others that I don't have time to search out right now.
  • From an aesthetic perspective, I think that the "Years active" column should be centered, due to the several single years in there. I think the blank space looks out of place. - Is it possible to use center aligment in only one field without centering the entire table? I have never tried it...

That's all for now... hope I was able to help! Let me know if this gets promoted; I worked long and hard on a baseball FL myself. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 13:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC) More from me...[reply]

  • The following players have "St. Louis Cardinals" misspelled as "St. Louis Cardenals" – Kiko Calero, Julio Gotay, Luis Melendez, Yadier Molina, Ed Olivares, Omar Olivares, Milt Ramirez, Orlando Sanchez. - These were fixed.
  • The following players have "Colorado Rockies" misspelled as "Colorado Rookies" – Edgard Clemente and Javier Lopez. - These were fixed.
  • You really need to check your tables, and make sure that each team is linked at its first appearance (as I said above). The following teams need linked at their first locations, below. In addition, any later links to these teams should be removed.
Links corrected; there a few teams with more than one link due to their past history, for example the Oakland Athletics are linked twice due to the Philadelphia and Kansas City Athletics.

All of my concerns have been resolved; therefore, I hereby support this list for promotion to featured status. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 14:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'm on it. - Caribbean~H.Q. 17:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
  • "... led to an improvement on their performance which led to..." 2x led to - reads poorly. - Reworded.
  • "...first year players born in Puerto Rico..." - should be "first-year" I guess, and can you explain what it means? - Fixed, its basically talking about rookie players.
  • "This measure has led to the local government officially asking exclusion of the draft and help to develop players, in order to reduce the impact of the change in the format of talent development." - this sentence doesn't read well for me, particularly "...officially asking exclusion of..." and the clause after the comma reads awkwardly. - Its explained in more detail in the following section, any suggestion on how to reword this?
  • Consider abbreviating Major League Baseball to MLB on its first instance and then you can save some bytes by using the abbreviation thereafter. - Done.
  • "During the games there was an average attendance of 14,222." - reads clumsily. I know, it's factual etc but it'd be better to reword and flow it back into the rest of the paragraph. - I did a slight reword, but it seems pretty straightforward.
  • A-E ought to be A–E, etc. - Done
  • While not mandated by the MOS (yet), I'd keep the table columns the same width from section to section and I'd also make the references centrally aligned. It makes no difference to the factual aspects of the list but it will improve the aesthetics enormously. - Done and done.
  • Images should be sized according to WP:IMAGES - so use of the upright modifier is encouraged. - I should know this but... I'm not really sure what you are suggesting, what particular template uses this field?
  • As you've split sections, you should link first instances of linkable articles in each section. - Some were, however the links were removed, please see KV5's review above.
  • The external link could use the {{cite web}} template - it's got a publisher, an accessdate etc. - Done

That's it from me. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will work with these shortly, cheers. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Matthew
  • This may simply be due to my display settings and monitor, but refs [8][9] in the sentence "Both Iván Rodríguez and Roberto Alomar hold the record for most Gold Glove Awards in their positions." appear at the beginning of a new line.
    • Not sure but its most likely the resolution that you are using, in mine it seems ok.
  • I'm a bit concerned over the stability of the article with regards to the statement "This includes a total of 218 baseball players from Puerto Rico that have played in MLB from 1942 to the present day." It might be better to put "from 1942 to the end of the 2008 season". The list will only need to be updated once a year then.
    • The thing is that it may be difficult holding out any updates until the season ends, a good ammount of minor leaguers are called-up halfway trough the season, I may not update it but will not revert if someone else does which would lead to factual problems, it may be better to just update it as their debut is published by the media.
      • OK. Unless you put <!-- Hidden comments --> and a message on the talk page asking contributors not to. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 06:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd prefer to see the unlinked names linked, even if they are red.
  • Reference concerns:
    • Sports Illustrated is a publication, so should be italliced - Done.
    • Ditto The Kansas City Star - Done
    • 1-800-Beisbol needs stating that it's in Spanish language - "Spanish" tag added.
    • What makes the following WP:reliable sources?
      • Latino Legends in Sports
        • The website is a database of biographies specializing in Latino players, I can always source that with a book.
          • But what makes it reliable? Owners, authors? Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 06:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • 'I have seen some of these authors in other publications and/or websites. Nevertheless, since its being used to source a single sentence talking about Orlando Cepeda it should be best to source it using a book, I will add that reference tommorow.
      • Primera Hora
      • baseball-reference.com
      • 1-800-Beisbol - Its a Spanish equivalent to baseball-reference et al.
      • The Baseball Cube - Same as above, its a statistic website, its content is the same found in the other ones.
      • baseball-almanac.com
    • Reference publishers/works should be wikilinked - Linked those with articles.
Comment from KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!: Baseball-reference.com and Baseball-almanac.com are considered to be reputable sources for all baesball articles, according to WP:BASEBALL. I can't speak for the rest.
OK Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 06:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's all I have. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 21:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • No need for the opening sentence to be structured as "This is an alphabetical list of professional baseball players from the archipelago of Puerto Rico..." We know this from the title of the article -
    • It may seem repetitive but it is a common format in Featured Lists, see for example List of UFC champions. In any case what would you suggest as a lead sentence?
      • And it's become less acceptable amongst the most recent ones. See also Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates/Archive 3#Straight repetitions of the title in the opening sentence. As for a suggestion, I'm not sure. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 06:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Tony has been known for nitpicking, I'm not sure how a lead sentence would work if we don't mention that Puerto Rico is an archipelago, most people still don't realize that its actually more than a single island.
          • His concerns are usually valid though and shouldn't be ignored because he is strict. It's "This is an alphabetical list of" that is the problem, not that you mention that Puerto Rico is an archipelago. But while we're talking about that, since not many people realize that it's actually more than an island, I'd like to see "archipelago" moved out of the bold title so it can be wikilinked. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 15:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Well, we could begin with something like "Puerto Rico is currently the second location in Latin America with more active players in MLB, behind the Dominican Republic. More than two-hundred players from the archipelago have played in the league since 1946." - How does that sound? this article could serve as a reference.
              • Try this instead of the first sentence there: "Puerto Rico currently has the second-most active players in Major League Baseball, behind only the Dominican Republic." KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
                  • That certainly sounds better, I'm working with it.
                    • I like the wording now, but the formatting doesn't look right. I don't know exactly what to suggest, perhaps "Puerto Rico currently has the second-most active Latin American players in Major League Baseball (MLB), behind only the Dominican Republic." or "Puerto Rico currently has the second-most active players in Major League Baseball (MLB) among Latin-American countries, behind only the Dominican Republic." KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 22:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                        • I like the wording on the second suggestion and will use it, out of curiosity which particular format problem are you referring to? - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                      • I was referring to the fact that the Latin-American was within the bold text, mostly. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 00:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overformatting here—nominator, please don't bold all of this text here!

Oppose—Cr 1: not well-written. Here are random examples of why a new copy-editor should be brought in to sift through the whole page.

  • "players that", more than once—are they robots? - This makes no sense, more than once where?
  • I presume that the "archipelago" comprises only two islands ("either"). - Archipelagoes are a cluster of islands, Puerto Rico is actually compossed of four large islands in Puerto Rico, Vieques, Mona and Culebra and countless cays.
  • "This led to an improvement on their performance and some of them were selected to participate in the Major League Baseball All-Star Game."—on should be in. Comma after "performance"? Some means how many? If it's hard to ascertain the number, can you give us a better idea than "some"? - Worked with the grammar. Some as in "several"? at least a dozen before 1960.
  • "Including their names in the Major League Baseball Draft is a requisite for first-year players born in Puerto Rico"—what, the players include their names? - Yes they do. Players must notify the league that they are interested in being included, if this is done trough agents or not depends on the player.
  • "This measure has led to the local government officially asking exclusion of the draft ..." Ouch, this is not good. This might help, but there's another issue too. - I reworded the sentence.

The whole text needs serious work; can you recruit a word-nerd collaborator? TONY (talk) 04:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closing user, Tony1's oppose seems directly influenced by my comment above. Now, "can you recruit a word-nerd collaborator" you seem awfully mad for me pointing out something that is not offensive. In all honesty I feel a taste of badfaith in that oppose, nevertheless I will awnswer your comments. - Caribbean~H.Q. 18:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 22:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I concur as well. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 23:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay, my server crashed for a while yesterday. It seems like a possitive esthetic change, I executed the proposed move. - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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