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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/2009 Mediterranean Games medal table/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 10:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

2009 Mediterranean Games medal table

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2009 Mediterranean Games medal table (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): — Bill william comptonTalk 00:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is a sustainable candidate for featured list. Wikipedia (of any language) has no featured/good article related to Mediterranean Games (please correct me if I'm wrong), the quadrennial games, in which athletes from nations bordering Mediterranean Sea compete in a variety of sports. The 2013 Mediterranean Games are scheduled to be held in Mersin, Turkey from 20 to 30 June 2013. And, I hope it appears on the main page's TFL. Any comments that will help improve the list are welcome. Thanks for your time and efforts! — Bill william comptonTalk 00:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 13:36, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Stick with one lead image.
Done
  • Image captions should only have a full stop if the caption is a full sentence.
Done
  • Wikilink athlete names in captions.
Done
  • "greatest in Mediterranean Games history (equivalent to Tunis 2005)" so it was the same as Tunis?
Yes!
So sam "the same as", or "equal to", not "equivalent", that's not normal English. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • " The total number of female athletes was at an all-time high" ref?
Done
  • "three non-Olympic, bocce" -> non-Olympic "events/sports/something".
Done
  • "leaving two countries" specify since there are only two.
Done
  • "Athens Olympics" could link this.
Done
  • "of Italy made a new world " -> "broke the world record"?
Done
  • " for the record eleventh" for a record...
Done
  • " with 64 gold medals" perhaps just "golds" as you've already said "medal" in this sentence.
Done
  • "Host nation" key needs an asterisk.
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 03:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorting by Gold in reverse order completely fritzes the Rank (which should be in reverse order as well, but instead goes 19, 20, 20, 17, 18, 13, 14....)
  • Sorting by Total, Cyprus should be above Bosnia as Cyprus had three golds, Bosnia none, despite have eight medals each.
  • Why the discrepancy in total number of golds, silvers and bronzes? Normally boxing for bronzes, but golds/silvers are typically the same.
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 04:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What's the status of the comments I've made you haven't responded to please? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't found any viable solution so far. Any ideas? — Bill william comptonTalk 16:31, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think the solution would be to set a sortkey manually for all tiebreakers. See {{ntsh}}, it is hidden, so for example for the golds set Bosnia to 0.1 and it will sort properly I think. Just do something like that for all ties in each column and it should fix it. CRwikiCA talk 21:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks CRwikiCA. Now it's working fine for reverse gold sorting. But for Cyprus and Bosnia, it's working as it's supposed to be. If any two nations are tied, they are listed alphabetically by IOC country code. — Bill william comptonTalk 05:57, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 22:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • Why is Tunis 2005 linking to the 2001 Games?
Done
  • Why are there four sports listed after "including three non-Olympic sports"?
Due to the special case of golf. I've tried to explain it.
Looks better, but the space after the em dash there needs removal. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:09, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • We have 23 National Olympic Committees, 21 countries with medals, and three countries with no medals. The math isn't adding up here.
Done. I messed it up after TRM's comment. Ahh, silly me!
  • "leaving three countries, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Malta and Monaco, without a medal". According to the table they did win medals, just not a gold. This may explain the issue from the previous comment.
Done
  • "the" is needed before "100 metres backstroke."
Done
  • Images could use alt text.
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 16:28, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Medal table: Another "the" needed before "women's 50 m freestyle event of swimming".
Done
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 23:21, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from CRwikiCA talk 13:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Would you have a reference for the smallest and largest delegation numbers?
Done
  • In the Pellegrini photo caption "made a new" --> "broke the"
Done
  • The table caption might not be needed.
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 05:24, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

CRwikiCA talk 22:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support The point below is no reason for me not to support this candidate. CRwikiCA talk 13:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • One more thing, I see you used a sortkey for the gold row, which works fine now. The silver, bronze and total columns do not always sort properly, you want them to follow the proper tie-breakers as well. CRwikiCA talk 13:50, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 15:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That is better, I have some remarks with regards to the tie-breakers you used. For the total column, should the first tie-breaker be number of golds? In that case BIH should be switched with CYP and LBA with MNE. For the bronze column, same issue for the countries with 13 or 6 bronzes, what is the tiebreaker there? And for the silver column for the 9, 4 and 3 counts of silver. Probably the best tie breaker is gold-->silver-->bronze for each column, but alternatives could work too. CRwikiCA talk 16:27, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've used IOC country code as a tiebreaker: if two countries are tied, they are listed alphabetically, according to their respective IOC code. Do you prefer gold→silver→bronze? — Bill william comptonTalk 19:25, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think an argument can be made for both, lets see whether anyone else comments on this, otherwise let it be this way. CRwikiCA talk 19:58, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've never seen those issues raised before because I've never heard anyone expect the sorting to work that way (retaining ranking despite choosing not to sort by rank). If this is desirable then I think would should do a feature request to include the {{ntsh}} template within the {{RankedMedalRow}} template. I think the current solution done here is fine anyhow. By the way, what is the advantage of the current wikitable style over the pre-made {{RankedMedalTable|class=wikitable sortable}}? One disadvantage I can see (on my screen at least) is that your gold/silver/bronze headers don't appear to be sortable at first glance. SFB 19:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There were some WP:ACCESS issues with the RankMedalTable template during the 2010 Asian Para Games medal table FLC. — Bill william comptonTalk 20:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
These issues were resolved at the time and the template is now suitable for use as it matches the scoping of the current text. Also note that the row scoping on the Asian Para FL has been missing since January 2012. SFB 06:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't fix the row scoping issue. A visually impaired editor on Hindi Wikipedia says it does help him. If you insist, I'll remove it, but personally I'd weigh accessibility over aesthetics. — Bill william comptonTalk 13:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I will raise this at the template pages as an ongoing issue. If we can take the accessibility lessons learnt in this discussion and bring them to a template with over 5000 transclusions then it will make a big difference. I'm not arguing that you should compromise accessibility - rather the opposite! I also expected you to revert the changes to Asian Para list. (BTW you already have my support anyway). SFB 20:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Nergaal (talk) 18:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
 Done — Bill william comptonTalk 18:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BIH is not colored correctly. Also, since there are so few participants I almost feel like the two 0-0-0 participating countries should be put at the bottom of the table. Nergaal (talk) 08:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I don't want to be a party pooper, but most of the intro isn't really about the medal count leaving most of the list with borderline-3.b issues. I would strongly suggest converting this list into something like "medal table and medallists at the 2009 games". Nergaal (talk) 08:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the first part of this but not the second. I think the first paragraph could be more generally summarised to tighten the focus. Less relevant information for a medal table is:
  1. Pescara being the third Italian city to host
  2. Olympic status of sports
  3. Introduction of sports (also are the water skiing medals even listed as a demonstration event? If not this should be stated.)
I would also move the medals total sentence into the lead and note that four sports (athletics, swimming, weightlifting, wrestling) accounted for almost half of the total medals awarded. SFB 20:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
 Done — Bill william comptonTalk 08:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from SFB 19:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
Comments from User:Sillyfolkboy
  • I think there should be some discussion about the athletes who won a significant number of medals.
  • It might also be reasonable to state who Malta and Monaco's sole medallists were.
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 05:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this is a matter of choice, but I'd like others opinions as well: should we be linking to the medal articles (e.g. bronze medal), seeing as medals are the focus of the list? I've seen these types of link removed as overlink on many occasions, but most times I've failed to work out what articles other editors would put the link on. SFB 06:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I'm in favour of this. If no one objects, then, I'll add the links. — Bill william comptonTalk 20:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've gone through the medallists on the website and two other multiple medallists of note were Youna Dufournet (4 golds, 1 silver in gymnastics) and Aschwin Wildeboer Faber (4 golds in swimming). I would add Dufournet to the athlete paragraph and add the four golds to the sentence about Faber. Given the article topic, I think there should be more emphasis on athlete medals than times. You should also state that Mellouli won the most gold medals of any athlete at the games (this is relatively easy to include because the opportunity to win that many golds only existed in five sports - swimming, athletics, gymnastics, bocce and shooting). I would just use the link to the main results page; you have a link to a broader swimming page with links as it is anyway. SFB 18:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was planning to add about other athletes as well (that's why I haven't written Done after your comment). Thanks for your research on medallists. I agree that the article should talk about the top medal winners but Nergaal thinks otherwise, I guess. What do you think of his/her suggestion? — Bill william comptonTalk 20:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think it logical to exclude talk of the people who had the greatest impact on the statistics presented. That would be like not discussing Mount Everest on List of countries by highest point. A medal table is a summary of medals that people have won. On the other hand, it would be reasonable to remove discussion of world records set; this is interesting but is only indirectly associated with the medal table. SFB 19:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
 Done — Bill william comptonTalk 05:29, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've made two minor tweaks (popping the athlete information into its own paragraph and changing one wording from "the nation" to "his nation" for clarity. All done now. SFB 19:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Parutakupiu (talk) 22:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
  • "from representing 23 National Olympic Committees (NOCs)"
Done
  • "NOC", "country" and "nation" are used throughout the page. Try to use as few variants as possible.
Done. Removed every usage of "country".
  • "The total number of female athletes was at an all-time high." — Was not the number of male athletes also the highest ever? Hence the same with total number of athletes?
No, Bari 1997 had 3,803 athletes but only 804 women participants. Hence, Pescara had something special.
Are you sure? Because it's not what is shown here or here. Parutakupiu (talk) 09:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am. 3,803 (2,999 + 804) > 3,368 (2,183 + 1,185), isn't it? — Bill william comptonTalk 17:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They've got their figures mixed up - the totals for Bari should be 2195 men, 804 women, 2999 total, otherwise they make no sense. I've emailed them. SFB 17:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, I didn't add the figures.
  • "... with 452 athletes for Italy and 391 for Greece athletes, respectively."
Done
  • "Andorra sent the smallest delegation ofwith 13 members." Also, I'd merge this sentence with the previous one (using "while" as linker).
Done
  • I suggest the following change: "...24 different sports, including three non-Olympic sports (bocce, karate and water skiing) and golf, which has been added to the 2016 Summer Olympics programme." (Notice the parentheses and the programme→program change).
Done, but why the "programme" change? I use the British variant.
Because you have "program" at the beginning of that same sentence. Choose only one variant. Parutakupiu (talk) 09:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge the last two sentences of the first lead paragraph.
Done
  • "Athletes from 21 countries every participating NOC, except Andorra and Lebanon, won medals, leaving two countries, Andorra and Lebanon, without a medal."
Done
  • '"Among the medalling countries NOCs, 18 of them won at least one gold medal."
Done
  • I find no need to enumerate the events won by Oussama Mellouli; the important is that he won 5 gold medals. Similarly, remove the reference to the event in which Pellegrini won the silver medal at the 2004 Olympics. Just state what she is: an Olympic silver medalist.
Done
  • "Yann Siccardi won the only medal for Monaco at the 2009 Mediterranean Games, a silver in the men's 60 kg event of judo, for Monaco at the 2009 Mediterranean Games."
Done
  • In the third paragraph, unlink Tunisia (already linked before).
Done
  • "Competitors from France led the silver medal count with 53. France also won, and with 48 golds medals, 39 bronzes medals and a total of 140 medals, finishing finished second on the medal table."
Done
  • "... a tie for the second position in between two swimmers from Italy..."
Done
  • Image captions should end with a period.
Done
  • The map image should be modified: the yellow (or gold) is too aggressive and one can hardly see the country borders with it. Plus, I'd suggest changing the colors of non-participating countries into more neutral non-gray color that can be distinguished from silver. The red circle could also be bigger, or at least increase the map size.
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 05:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Odd choice of colors, but it does the job. :) Parutakupiu (talk) 09:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't find any other suitable combination. Do you have a suggestion? — Bill william comptonTalk 17:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The ideal should be to have each medal color, but that previous "gold" looked more like a "bright yellow". Actually, the non-participating countries looked better in gray, but in a lighter shade. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 21:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The flag of Lybia should reflect the pre-2011 revolution design.
Done
  • A navbox showing links to other Mediterranean Games medal table pages would be nice. There's already one for the more recent Games, it's a matter of time until the others are created.
Good idea! I'll create and add one when I got the time!
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 06:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

— Parutakupiu (talk) 23:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Parutakupiu for your thorough review. — Bill william comptonTalk 05:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was looking again at the lead and it appears way too long. I then scanned for prose that could be dispensable and I believe that the text going from "The total number of female athletes..." to the end of the first paragraph could be removed without damaging the lead. I mean, this is mostly information that should appear in the 2009 Mediterranean Games. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done — Bill william comptonTalk 21:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. My issues have been addressed. Parutakupiu (talk) 22:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a convention followed by Wikipedia. Other than that, I've no problem in listing those three NOCs. — Bill william comptonTalk 10:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now there are three, which I hope is ok. — Bill william comptonTalk 10:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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