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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Woody Guthrie

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 02:20, 1 February 2008.

Woody Guthrie

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Nominator: I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has previously achieved GA status which was followed by rigorous Peer Review. Kmzundel (talk) 15:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator: I support this nomination as well. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 16:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Moni3 Billy Bragg and Wilco's version of "California Stars" is one of my favorite songs. I have a few suggestions.

  • You have a split infinitive: Guthrie was able to easily learn old Irish ballads
Edited this sentence. Kmzundel (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this language is too informal: son to come to Texas where nothing much changed for the now-aspiring musician. Try Come to Texas where little changed...
Edited per your suggestion - much better. Thank you. Kmzundel (talk) 18:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This portion: often—literally and figuratively—caused family upheaval reads fine without the aside.
I hope this isn't a deal-breaker, because I like the aside.  :-) Kmzundel (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch your punctuation here: He said "I have to set[sic] real hard to think of being a dad".[29].
  • Watch informal labels, such as in this phrase: New York upper-middle class left-wingers and This hero worship went to Guthrie's head. You sound like you're making judgments.
I removed those statements. Kmzundel (talk) 18:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think they were cited, or can be. Either way, they add some color, but are not nessary--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How were Bound for Glory and the Asch Recordings received?
Added content re: Bound for Glory's reception. Will search re: the Asch Recordings. Kmzundel (talk) 18:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The short answer is they weren't. Asch recorded many things but once that happened mostly shelved the results due to publishing costs. Tho something could be added about the reception of the recordings when issued in the 1990s--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The information about Joan Baez playing the Los Gatos song should be later in the article, probably where you mention singers visiting him in the hospital and singing his own songs to him.
Thanks for catching this. I'm going to remove the Baez cover info since we removed an entire section that included (listed) other artists who have covered Woody. Kmzundel (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I noticed a few terms that should be linked to articles. You might want to read through it once more to see if there are more links you can include.
  • Can you find an image of the statue of Guthrie mentioned in the legacy section?
It's actually the main photo in the Woody Guthrie Folk Festival article which is linked, but can be added here if necessary. Kmzundel (talk) 17:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should either include the statue photo in the article as well, or trim out some of the details about it in the folk festival paragraph. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 18:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO, I think it's fine the way it is. Kmzundel (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck with this article. --Moni3 (talk) 16:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Queries
Are you familiar with a euglogy like text by Bob Dylan called something like "A few words on Woodie Guthrie"? - Bob Dylan says they asked him to write "25 words on Woodie Guthrie"... Do you think it is significant?
Actually the story is that during a show in the 1960s Dylan revealed to the audience that he had been asked to contribute to a book answering the question ‘What does Woody Guthrie mean to you in 25 words?’ Bob Dylan said, ‘I couldn’t do it’. It's a nice bit of trivia, but not relevant here. Kmzundel (talk) 23:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is mentioned in the Dylan article as it has been recorded by him a couple times, we could add a note about it in the Tributes section, I think the tribute held just after his death was the debut of this piece--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"House member Agnes "Sis" Cunningham, another Okie, would later recall that Woody, "pretended to be something else,"" - could it be clarified what he really was? -or what she thought he really was?
I interpret that quote to mean he wanted to be known as a blue-collar working man, not an intellectual. (It is an oddly written paragraph.) Kmzundel (talk) 23:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is correct, Sis saw Woody as an intellectual playing up his folksy roots. I'll see if I can clarify --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
--Kiyarrllston 19:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I thoroughly examined this article during Peer Review, and made many suggestions. All were dealt with. Re-reviewing it now, I see that it's in tip-top shape. – Quadell (talk) (random) 20:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Kmzundel (talk) 14:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I have made several copyedits but the text is already excellent. Below are some sentences that caught my eye and may need to be rephrased. Otherwise job well done.-BillDeanCarter (talk) 05:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arriving in New York, the Oklahoma cowboy was embraced by its leftist folk music community and slept on a couch in Will Geer's apartment. i would write Guthrie, known as the Oklahoma cowboy, or now known as the Oklahoma cowboy... and I would change the last phrase, to something like "he would crash on a couch in Will Geer's apartment" though not using the verb crash.
Edited the Oklahoma cowboy wording; can't think of a better term than "slept" (instead of "crash".) Kmzundel (talk) 14:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later Seeger accompanied Guthrie back to Texas to meet other members of the Guthrie family and remembers an awkward conversation with Mary Guthrie's mother in which she asked Seeger's help in persuading Guthrie to treat her daughter better. instead of "and remembers" perhaps "and has recalled" or "would recall"?
Edited per suggestion. Kmzundel (talk) 14:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Guthrie's arm was hurt in a campfire accident when gasoline, used to start the campfire, exploded. perhaps this is a canister of gasoline?
Not sure if it was a canister. Does it matter? Kmzundel (talk) 14:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Kline bio woody attepmted to start a fire by pouring gasoline on to smoulding embers, causing a fire to start, tho like most fire related accidents from guthrie's (fire phobic) memory, they are suspect in terms of their objectivity. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The festival is held on the weekend closest to July 14 - the date of Guthrie's birth - in Guthrie's hometown of Okemah, Oklahoma. I believe either an em-dash or an en-dash needs to be used here. See WP:DASH.
Okey dokey. Thank you! Kmzundel (talk) 14:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Kmzundel (talk) 14:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it was NOT in the public domain? I'll look into this, we have a clip but the full song would be better. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, nice, I'll update the ogg.--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pasted from the Woody Guthrie discussion page This article currently uses Image:Woody Guthrie - This Land.ogg, a 30-second sample of "This Land is You Land", claiming fair use. But according to this (and further details here), the song is in the public domain. I believe a full version of the song should be included. – Quadell (talk) (random) 15:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Errr, yes and no... the sheet music of the 1945 version is public domain... not necessarily any recordings of it. But, quite likely some recordings of it are. But, that comes down to how does Wikipedia work on allowing non-renewal evidence on Wikipedia. I have not been up to date on our ever-evolving copyright policies but some evidence will be required. gren グレン 07:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're right about recordings. As to non-renewal evidence, I think those links I listed above should be adequate. – Quadell (talk) (random) 12:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But I meant non-renewal for any full length sound recording where a notable group like the EFF hasn't assured us it wasn't renewed. I know on the FAC someone mentioned that they would upload a full version I just want to make sure it doesn't get deleted. gren グレン 13:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I see. Happily, there are online searches available. See User:Quadell/copyright#Published_works_in_the_United_States for details. – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sample on the page is from the Asch recording sessions. This particular track was issued on the Dust Bowl Ballads record, According to this copyright search the copyright was most recently renewed to Rounders Records in 1988, so I think to err on the side of caution we should maybe keep the clip a sample. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 14:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dan, probably a good idea to post this info on the FAC page. Kmzundel (talk) 15:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Writing quality, references and substance are all excellent. Great job! (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 02:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Thanks for your declaration of Support!  :-) Kmzundel (talk) 14:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes:
  • inconsistent date linking in the footnotes, some access and other dates are linked, some not, and missing publishers (at least at, ^ 15th Annual Folk Alliance Conference: Nashville Sings Woody. Retrieved February 6, 2007. )
  • Inconsistent formatting on publishers, some are listed before title, others after. 8What is "Further information?" Is that supposed to be Further reading or is it an External link farm (see WP:EL, WP:NOT).
  • Some missing endashes on page ranges (Klein, Woody Guthrie, p.192-193,195–231), and why not pp. on multiple pages?
  • Missing retrieval dates (^ WoodyGuthrie.org. "My Constitution and Me" Woody Guthrie Archives. Manuscripts Box 7 Folder 23.1 )
  • This is a print source, owned by the archive, not online, does not need a retrival date? --Dannygutters (talk · contribs)
  • Missing page numbers on book sources (^ Longhi, Jim (1997). "Woody, Cisco and Me". Random House. ISBN 0252022769.)
  • Review endashes and avoid starting sentences with numbers (see WP:MOSNUM, example: 45 million stamps were printed).
  • Incorrect date linking, example: On April 27, 2007, Woody Guthrie was one of four ...
  • Is this hyphen correct? The Ribbon of Highway tour kicked-off on February ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy, I rearranged your notes so I could work on them individually. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which makes it difficult for me to review and strike as needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Starting over:

  • There is inconsistent formatting and/or unidentified publishers, example: Reitwiesner, William Addams. Ancestry of Arlo Guthrie. Retrieved Nov. 7, 2007. Some sources use cite templates, which list publisher after title, and others are manually formatted, with publisher listed where author belongs. Pick one style, one method, and identify all publishers, authos and publication dates when available.
  • Dates in citations are inconsistently formatted. For example, compare
  • Correct: Reitwiesner, William Addams. Guthrie Family Ancestry. Retrieved on July 17, 2007.
  • Incorrect: CD Universe. What's Bin Did And What's Bin Hid by Donovan. Retrieved Nov. 27, 2007.
  • This is a website that needs a retrieval date no matter who owns it: ^ WoodyGuthrie.org. "My Constitution and Me" Woody Guthrie Archives. Manuscripts Box 7 Folder 23.1
Actually, the publisher should read Woody Guthrie Archives, this document is not available via the web, it's in the box noted in New York at the WG Archive. If I recall this document was sourced via a trip to the archives in NY. Updated.--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 05:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there an order to Further reading? Alphabetical? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Further reading now alphabetized. Kmzundel (talk) 23:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Well-written article and citations have been fixed Karanacs (talk) 14:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Oppose' for now over citation issues. There are also a few minor WP:MOS fixes needed.
    • Please add non-breaking spaces between numbers and their qualifiers (for example, 30 plots, 174 times)
Do Dates need these as well? Like January 25. Also, the style manual suggests pp. ## as inclding a non breaking space? --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 20:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, dates don't need nonbreaking spaces (they should be wikilinked and that's it). And yes, the style manual recently decided that pp. ## needs a nonbreaking space between them too. Karanacs (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • This little bit of make-work silliness (nbsp on page nos) has been removed from MOS as of today. If you've already done them, they can stay, but it's no longer necessary (and never should have been). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Do you have a citation for the fact that "The poverty he saw on these early trips affected him greatly"?
Removed this item. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Need a citation for the fact that Guthrie was frustrated at returning to Pampa (California section)
Removed this item --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Need a source for the facts that he did not excel as a student but was described as bright, and for fact that friends remember him reading constantly
Updated. Added citation. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Need a citation for Seeger recalling "an awkward conversation with Mary Guthrie's mother in which she asked Seeger's help in persuading Guthrie to treat her daughter better."
Updated. Added citation. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Need a citation for why he quit the New York show
Updated. Added citation. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The previous batch all pretty much come from the Cray Book or the Kline Book, I will source from there. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 20:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Quotes should be cited immediately after the sentence that quote appears in, even if that means citations are duplicated for several sentences in a row. Please appropriately cite the Library Journal review of Bound for Glory.
Updated, added citation. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Need a citation for fact that "Songs to Grown on for Mother and Child" was one of his most popular albums
Opinion, Removed--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 20:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are several times in the article that mention that these years were one of his most productive periods. It got almost amusing, and it might be better served to point out the ones that were not productive.
Be more specific here, I think the article points out the Mermaid avenue period as his most productive period as a writer and the pacific northwest interms of number of completed songs or even the asche sessions as most recordings done. Tho the word 'productive' only appears once. Maybe this was addressed already? --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 20:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • think you should remove the information about researchers finding a gene for Huntington's but no cure. That is not really applicable to this article. As for his children, all I would include is: "Two of his children by his first wife were also diagnosed with the disease, and both died aged 41."
Updated. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 05:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Need a citation for fact that archives have been starting point of albums
Is this necessary? The next statement contains links to pages about the mermaid avenue albums which state their starting point as the archives (infact, they were originated as projects by the archives themselves), and the main article link to the archives page details other recordings with the archives as a starting point. A citation could easily be found though. --Dannygutters (talk ·

contribs) 20:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go ahead and add the citation. You never know if information is going to change in the other article, or those other articles might be deleted. Karanacs (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Updated. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 18:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Folk Festival section has three sentences in a row that begin along the lines of "The festival is...." Can this be varied any?
updated--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 20:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the references, full dates need to be wikilinked so that people's date preferences work
I fixed these for you. Karanacs (talk) 14:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Citation 28 does not have a page number, as the others from that book do. Can you try to track that down, please?
Updated this. --Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 01:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
41 doesn't have a page number either. Karanacs (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Citation 57 needs to have a publisher listed, as does 60, 73
Updated--Dannygutters (talk · contribs) 20:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck! Karanacs (talk) 19:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dannygutters, have you asked Karanacs to revisit? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Karanacs has now given his support above. Kmzundel (talk) 15:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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