Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 20:54, 28 June 2008 [1].

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University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Nominator Hippo (talk) 02:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. This article has a good basic structure but needs a lot of work to meet the FA criteria. Too much of the article is cited to university websites (not independent), I think the organization needs a bit of work, there are gaps that should be fleshed out, and the prose will need a good copyedit. Here are some more specific details.

• Prose issues: I found many instances of short (even one-sentence) paragraphs, redudant phrasing, imprecise phrasing, and paragraphs that don't flow well together. Following or a very few examples.
  • "first public university in the United States to admit students" - were there other public universities before that that did not admit students?

Yes, the University of Georgia was chartered 4 years before UNC, but did not start admitting students until 8 years after UNC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.58.204.226 (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. Added sentence and cited. —Hippo (talk) 17:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• • "Academically, undergraduates receive a liberal arts education with an opportunity to specialize within the professional schools of the university later in their studies." - this makes it sound like AFTER you get a degree then you specialize

Fixed Rreagan007 (talk) 16:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• • "In 2007, a full professor received a Nobel Prize for the first time when Oliver Smithies was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work in genetics.[22]" - this makes it sound like either a) Smithies was the first full professor anywhere to receive a Nobel or b) others at UNC received a Nobel before Smithies (he was just the first full professor there)

Fixed, I think.—Hippo (talk) 16:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• • Lots of redundant phrasing. For example "has received other awards such as the Pacemaker Award from the Associated Collegiate Press." should be "has received the Pacemaker Award from..." Other example "This all-volunteer band consisting of 275 members supports the 28 Olympic sports programs" could be "This 275-member volunteer band supports the 28..."

Fixed the two mentioned above. —Hippo (talk) 16:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

These were only examples. The article needs a good copyedit by someone who is new to it (if you've been working on it awhile it is often hard to see issues in the prose). Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Per WP:MOS, centuries should be numerals (18th century instead of eighteenth)

Done. —Hippo (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• The first paragraph of the History section is ordered a bit funny, as it goes from 1789 to 1795 and back to 1793

Fixed ordering. —Hippo (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The organization is much better, but the prose needs a lot of work. Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Why was the university "forced to close" during Reconstruction? Lack of money, lack of students, government said so?

Added. Certainly lack of money and students. I can find mention of politics, but not specifics.—Hippo (talk) 17:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Is there a reason that helped UNC to stay open during Civil War when most others closed?

Only conjectures. Record keeping appears to have been sparse during the war, with such a large proportion of staff and students away. The Civil War physically reached Chapel Hill late compared to much of the South, but even the book by Snider doesn't seem to make a connection. —Hippo (talk) 04:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Finally found a mention of an agreement between the governor of NC and the president of the CSA regarding the draft of students, so added that.-Hippo (talk) 17:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• There is very little information about the school between 1795 and 1860 and between 1875 and 1932. Were there any important milestones during those times?

Nothing extraordinary. For instance Snider just talks about the Presidents as people for the chapters on those years. That there are those two periods is no coincidence, with the university effectively opening in 1795 and re-opening in 1875. -Hippo (talk) 15:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The history section just seems so small for a university of this age. Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is the university just struggled along until the Civil War and then closed, and very little happened until it had re-established itself. I'm probably missing something ca. 1880-1930. Athletics started then, and there are credible sources that suggest the first forward pass in football was thrown by a Carolina player, but would that be better placed in the "Athletics" section? -Hippo (talk) 15:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• about the political protests in the 1960s - were students protesting? were other people gathering on campus to protest (prose does not make this clear). Were the protests peaceful or violent? Did anything happen as a result of the protests?

Added to the section. -Hippo (talk) 17:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• It would be nice to have more details about the student population at periods of time or the endowment (increasing fourfold from what to what?)

Added a couple of figures. —Hippo (talk) 04:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Notable leaders of the university include the 26th Governor of North Carolina, David Lowry Swain; and Edwin Anderson Alderman, who was also president of Tulane University and the University of Virginia.[23] Current chancellor James Moeser will be succeeded by Holden Thorp in the summer of 2008.[24]" -Did they do anything notable while president (and if so, what), or are they only notable for what they did before/after their stint as president? What years were they president?

Added dates. -Hippo (talk) 15:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The other part of the question is why are they notable - solely for their actions outside the university or also for something they did while president at the university? Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Swain would be more notable than most presidents of the university, but I'm not sure I would put him on a list if he had not been governor too. Alderman wasn't notable as a president at UNC, largely because the university had no money for him to be able to change anything. -Hippo (talk) 15:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Since the article mentions the "sprawling" campus, is there any information about the number of acres it encompasses?

In the infobox. Is that enough?

Added inline. —Hippo (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• "One of the quads is named Polk Place, after President James K. Polk, a native of North Carolina and an alumnus of the university" - what is the name of the other

There are many, do I need to list them all? I feel the name "Polk Place" is (only) worth mentioning just because Polk was U.S. President.

Just noticed the article says there are two... Just need to clarify the definition of quad. I guess the other must be "McCorkle Place".

Done. —Hippo (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Any information on what about the landscaping was so impressive that the campus could be labelled a work of art?

I don't have a access to the book referenced, unfortunately, so I'm hesitant to add anything else. I guess it's the down to the age of campus, all the old trees, and flowers, but that's just my opinion and not something for the article. Hippo (talk) 04:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest interlibrary loan for that one - this could have some really interesting info. Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• What is "Student Stores"?

Removed. It's just a shop. —Hippo (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Are there any landmarks/etc that divide the three regions of campus from each other?

Just roads and the topology, but given the town is Chapel Hill, I'm not sure whether adding that campus is hilly would add much! -Hippo (talk) 15:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• "with new science facilities for the twenty-first century," - what exactly does this mean?

No idea. Changed.—Hippo (talk) 15:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• It might be worth explaining just a bit what a Public Ivy is for people who have not heard the term
• Should the Athletics section mention who the school's biggest rivals are?

Done. —Hippo

I think the new section is a good start, but it is missing valuable information. It just kind of starts at the 1980s. It would be important to mention when the rivalries began. You could also pull out interesting information from the sub articles. for example, the article on the rivalry with Duke mentions that "It is considered one of the most intense rivalries in all of sports: a poll conducted by ESPN in 2000 ranked the basketball rivalry as the third greatest North American sports rivalry of all-time, and Sports Illustrated on Campus named it the #1 "Hottest Rivalry" in college basketball and the #2 rivalry overall in its November 18, 2003 issue" - those kinds of details make the article more interesting. Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• There is no real information on residential life - how many students live on campus (what percentage is this of the whole)?

Added a housing section. I'll try to add some statistics if I can find any. —Hippo (talk) 00:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• There is definitely a noticeable trend in the article that the university has been one of the pioneers in using the internet. Is there any information on why this is?

Having ibiblio on site, I guess, but it's difficult to find much about ibiblio that is truly third party, since the ideal place to archive information about such a project happens to be ibiblio... —Hippo (talk) 04:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• What do you mean by "Olympic sports programs"?

Wasn't actually accurate (included football), so removed. —Hippo (talk) 16:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• What do you mean that the band "supports" the teams? That could be anything from 1 member of the band sitting in the stands at each game, to the full band marching at every game to the band having fundraisers for those teams

Expanded section. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Who/what is the " Student Attorney General"? How is this position filled and how does it relate to the Honor Court? How is the Honor Court chosen?

Simplified the honor code section so it just gets a very brief mention now. —Hippo (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• I think that the Traditions sections is misplaced. I would put Honor code under academics and the rest under Athletics

Done. —Hippo

• I am concerned that almost the entire history section is sourced to the university. A quick search of Google books shows that William Snider wrote a book in 1992 on the history of the university. I think this should be used, and there may be other books or newspaper articles that can help you to better source and better flesh out that section.

Snider is also UNC faculty. Is it any different? —Hippo

It's not uncommon for books about a university to be written by people currently or formerly affiliated with the university. Because the book was published by a university press (even though it is UNC's), that means it was peer reviewed, and that he would have drawn on primary and other secondary source material. This is much better than the university web pages, which are not necessarily fact-checked and often include only the information the university wants the public to know. Karanacs (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I now have a copy of the Snider book so I'll do my best to add references from there, though a quick trip to another library on campus suggests the web pages are more a digitalization of the Southern Historical Collection than university history pages, which are elsewhere. I have a feeling that they may originally have been hosted on ibiblio, even. —Hippo (talk) 17:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I should add, for a bit of a perspective, that the same digitization project has information on on everything from the original Siamese twins to North Carolina capital punishment. —Hippo (talk) 17:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• I would also encourage you to seek out newspaper articles or books to better reference other pieces of the article. The ibiblio information should be able to be found in a reliable independent source.

Replaced a large number of references with those from the N&O. I'd say the mix of sourcing is now comparable to the other university FA's. -Hippo (talk) 14:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• There is no publisher listed for current ref 45, Top Journalism Programs (2008). Retrieved on 2008-06-16.

Karanacs (talk) 13:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Removed, it was just added and wasn't a third-party source either. —Hippo

Comments

Resolved comments from Gary King (talk) 16:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• There's an extra line after "UNC is the oldest public university in the nation and the only one to award degrees in the 18th century.[9][10]"

Fixed.—Hippo (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Image:UNC School of Public Health.jpg in the article should be placed before the section title so it doesn't break any flow between the section title and the first paragraph of the section per MOS:IMAGE.
• Same above with Image:Blue Devil vs Rameses.jpg.

Both fixed.—Hippo (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Not a big deal, but would be nice if all the images were uniform sizes by removing the forced image sizes from each one.

Done.—Hippo (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Gary King (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I haven't read the whole article in detail, but here a few of my impressions and where improvements are needed.

• 1.) Lack of alumni/faculty/famous people associated with university section. While this is not a requirement for FA, all the other university FA articles that I've seen contain a section like this.

It's true that other university FA's don't have one, but I think there vary in success as far a NPOV goes. Athletes who have been concensus national champions have been mentioned in the athletics section, and that seems a fair criteria to keep that list manageable, and the sole US President and Nobel Prize winner also are mentioned in other sections. It's a different approach, but I think the information is there. —Hippo (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Fair enough. I also think there should be some variance as there is certainly not only one correct way to organize an FA-worthy article. So, your explanation certainly holds water and as I said I didn't take a detailed look at the text....yet ;) -Bluedog423^Talk 18:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• 2.) No residential life information.

Added a housing section. I'll try to add some statistics if I can find any. —Hippo (talk) 00:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• What percent of undergrads live on campus? -Bluedog423^Talk 01:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been searching around, but I can't find the data anywhere. Neither the Institutional Research and Assessment, nor the Housing and Residential Education have the figures on their website and a Google search on unc.edu isn't helping, so I think we'll have to do without. My intuition looking around campus would be that the percentage is going to be similar to most schools, so hopefully it's not a huge omission. —Hippo (talk) 04:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• According to the College Board, 46% of undergrads live on campus. [2] -Bluedog423^Talk 13:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Added. Thanks for finding that! -Hippo (talk) 15:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• 3.) "UNC is one of the original eight schools known as a Public Ivy." I know this information is just trying to say that UNC as one of the premier public institutions in the country (which is an undisputed fact that I, of course, agree with). I just don't know if this is the best way to go about doing this. Is there anything particularly notable about Richard Moll's 1985 book Public Ivys: A Guide to America's best public undergraduate colleges and universities? This is just one dude's opinion. If I didn't know anything about UNC and saw this, I'd be like "so what?" One guy in his book wrote that UNC was one of the best public schools? Unless you can establish notability in regards to the book (e.g. an article is allowed to be created about it), I think using this phrase as evidence that UNC is one of the best public schools is weak. Even USN&WR would seem more reputable to me...but I guess that's debatable. This is subjective, of course, but saying that as evidence to me undermines the actual excellence of UNC as an academic institution. I'd try to find an alternate method.

I agree, though it might be chaos if it is removed as people here are so attached to it. I'll see what I can do. —Hippo (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, there was a bit of an edit war when the Public Ivy was last debated. Michigan is using it in their lead along with a ranking, though I don't know if that's a good enough reason... I would prefer something different, but I might have to be pragmatic. WikiProject Universities have internal disagreements about rankings in the lead, NC State dislike having "flagship" in the lead, and South Carolina dislike mention of "Carolina" in the lead! —Hippo (talk) 04:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

And I forgot, UNC system dislike UNC in the lead... —Hippo (talk) 04:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand. This is definitely subjective and clearly not a reason to keep it from FA, so I'm withdrawn this concern, even though personally I don't it. -Bluedog423^Talk 13:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• 4.) "undergraduates receive a liberal arts education with an opportunity to specialize within the professional schools of the university later in their undergraduate career." "students move on to the College of Arts and Sciences, or choose a professional degree program within medicine, business, education, pharmacy, information and library science, public health, or journalism and mass communication." This isn't very clear...Do students enroll in a professional school after their first two years? I assume not, but it says "students move on to the College of Arts and Sciences, or choose a professional degree program." That would seem to suggest they enroll in the professional school. It also makes it seem like they gets an advanced professional degree (masters) in just four years. Obviously, that is not the case. This needs to be made much much clearer as I don't really understand it. The details can be in the curriculum section, of course.

I've made a couple of changes, but I've never had any involvement with the undergrad program at UNC, so I'm not an expert. —Hippo (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

A bit better, but still not good enough. I still don't get it. It still makes it seem like undergrads enroll in a grad school after their sophomore years. You can get a bachelor's in medicine, pharmacy, and public health? That's certainly possible, but would be fairly unique among US universities and this should be made clear if this indeed is the case. Try to find somebody who knows. -Bluedog423^Talk 01:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The original source appears to be [3]. It says:

"We don't ask students to choose a major until their sophomore year. All first-year students, regardless of their intended major, enter the College of Arts and Sciences... During their sophomore year, students will either declare a major within the College of Arts and Sciences or apply to one of the University's professional schools, each of which has specific requirements for admission."

—Hippo (talk) 16:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do... —Hippo (talk) 04:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

It is a bit confusing, because the professional schools tend to focus on graduate degree programs, but most of them also offer a BS degree. The school of public health offers a BS in public health. The school of medicine offers several BS degrees such as the BS in radiologic science. It's also confusing because the university website dosen't seem to have a single page that I can find where all undergrad degree programs are listed. They seem to be scattered on the various professional schools' individual websites. I managed to find BS degree programs in medicine, nursing, public health, journalism, business, info and library science, education, and dentistry. I'll try to find a good page to cite to, but like I said it seems like the information is scattered across the various professional school webpages. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• 5.) If you had only 12 sentences to say the MOST important things about UNC and what makes it unique, would you waste precious words on things like what game the mascot first appeared at? I sure wouldn't. The focus of the lead needs to be reassessed. Every sentence/phrase/word should be significant as this is the summary of everything there is to know about UNC and why we should care. I also don't know if the origin of the school's colors is necessary to mention in the lead.

Agreed. I've made a few changes, but need to go through it again. —Hippo (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• 6.) Don't fix image sizes. Let users choose their own via their preferences.

Done. —Hippo (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• 7.) Is there anything particularly notable about UNC's honor code? It seems pretty standard to me and doesn't make UNC unique. I don't think it should have its own section. Perhaps a sentence regarding the honor code is appropriate in another section. Likewise, is it really necessary to mention it in the lead?

Removed from lead. Will look to merge sections. —Hippo (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• 8.) Similarly, student gov't section seems pretty standard to me and not unique or special to UNC. Does it really require its own section and a mention in the lead? All schools have student government that I know of.

Also removed from lead and will merge somewhere. —Hippo (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Done now. —Hippo (talk) 04:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• 9.) Student Life section in general. Lots of short stubby sections. No residential life mentioned. Again, is charity so notable to have its own section? I think I'd combine charity, media, and music and theater into one section like "Organizations/Activities" or something like that.

Combined as suggested. —Hippo (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

That's all I got for now and I didn't really even read the article except for the lead. Cheers, -Bluedog423^Talk 17:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• More comments

• Don't continually wikilink the same terms. For example, Duke is wikilinked 5 times in the article. Typical protocol is to only link it the first time it is mentioned, but it seems to be okay to link it a second time if it's not near the first one or in a particular section where the user would want to see more information (e.g. men's basketball linking to the UNC team page in the lead and athletics makes perfect sense).
• Article is slightly over wikified. See Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context. Provide links to things that the user would actually click to find out more information about. Do you think anybody would actually click on "ram" or "apartment building"? I guess they could...but this doesn't add anything. This isn't a huge deal, but those are just a couple example I found on a glance.

Overall the article looks good! -Bluedog423^Talk 01:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I take your point about the wikilinks. It's difficult to keep track of them all when lots of people have edited. I'll see if I can go through it. The ironic thing about apartment building is I quickly modeled that section on FA UC Riverside, including wikilinks... Hippo (talk) 03:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully that's better now. Less Duke links, which can only be a good thing. ;) —Hippo (talk) 04:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Ha, yeah...Even FA articles usually have some faults! -Bluedog423^Talk 13:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

• Can you provide a source for Carolina as a name of the school?

A large proportion of the references already in the article use Carolina and it's a shortening of "North Carolina". I don't think it needs a reference. UNC is only cited as it's open to confusion, and if I have to reference "Carolina" why shouldn't I reference "North Carolina".-Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Because there is a North and South Carolina. If the large majority of references use it, then it should be easy to find one. KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Added reference.-Hippo (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• The campus is the oldest in, and flagship of, the University of North Carolina system. This seems awkward to me. It needs to be better explained and maybe reworded.

How is it awkward? It is the oldest by 90 or so years and is the flagship as defined by the definition of the wikilinked article. Also it's expanded in the body of the text (history section). -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It is expanded in the text but it is confusing in the lead. So the campus is the oldest, but what about the unviersity? And the campus is the flagship, what about the unviersity? KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Now I'm confused. I think campus and university are used as synomyms. I'll see if I can clarify the text. -Hippo (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they are synonyms. KnightLago (talk) 17:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• In both teaching and research, UNC has been highly ranked by publications such as BusinessWeek and U.S. News & World Report. Does this really belong in the lead. The lead is meant to summarize the most important information in the article. How important is this really?

This is a constant source of debate, see the talk page of WP Universities, for instance, but generally people seem to be in favor of it, particularly for US schools. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I know there is debate taking place, I have been watching. I think the general consensus so far is that there is no consensus thus leaving it up to each individual article. I wouldn't put it there because I don't think it is one of the most important things in the entire article. Speaking of the lead, I just realized there is no history in it. Just assertions that it is the oldest, first etc.KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• The lead doesn't really flow. You go from the above sentence to: Along with Duke University in Durham and North Carolina State University in Raleigh, the university forms one of the corners of the Research Triangle. No real transition or anything.

Could you suggest an improvement? In summarizing a diverse article in a couple of paragraphs, it's difficult to transition smoothly. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It is hard for me to fix this issue because I really don't know the information. I think the lead should be expanded. Add more history, establish a flow. Look at the other featured universities for examples. KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• The North Carolina Tar Heels share rivalries with other Tobacco Road schools and have provided many Olympians to United States teams. Again how important is this really?

Extremely. The state of North Carolina practical revolves any sporting rivalries, and it's quite an honor to have provided any Olympians, a point that sadly seems to be often missed in U.S. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok then. KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Again: The student newspaper The Daily Tar Heel has won national awards for collegiate media, while the student radio station WXYC provided the world's first internet radio broadcast. A lot of newspapers have won national awards. And while the student radio was the first, it is not so important that it should be mentioned in the lead.

I could agree with you on the newspaper, but to say that making the first internet radio broadcast isn't important seems very strange. Maybe I'm misreading you. Could you clarify? -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Well to start, the first issue is dubious without further sourcing. The sources are both internal. Second, assuming they were first, every university is first in certain things. This doesn't seem very important or notable. I guess it will depend on the sourcing you find, but right now it doesn't. KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I've found the correct referencing for the Guardian article, though it's only available in paper form. I guess I do need to find something better than the press release, but there isn't much online, as the WWW was only just starting then. I probably don't have a very unbiased view of internet radio as I'm often listening to things online, but given it's something now integrated with iTunes, Windows Media Player, and on sites like ESPN, I'm inclined to stick with it.-Hippo (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Does the excerpt from the Guardian even say they were the first? I don't recall seeing that. KnightLago (talk) 17:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• For the infobox, why not put the citations with the information they support? If I want to see the endowment number cite why should I have to search for it? How do I even know where to look for a piece of information? 1 goes to a book. How do I know what information is in that book?

It wasn't my design, but I actually like the way it's been done. Otherwise you're going to end up with footnotes on every field. I'll try to clarify the book source, though. Given it's a Latin book, I assume it's the Latin name and/or the motto translation.-Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Moved references next to fields (not really important what I like!) -Hippo (talk) 17:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• During the 1960s, the campus was the location of significant political protest, first about local racial segregation of hotels and restaurants,[21] and then opposition to the Speaker Ban Law prohibiting speeches by Communists on state campuses in North Carolina.[22][23] There should be no one sentence paragraphs.

I need to expand that, so I'll let you know when that's done. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Done now, I think. -Hippo (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• From the late 1990s onward, UNC expanded rapidly not only in terms of a 15% increase in total student population to more than 28,000 as of 2007, but also in facilities, funded in part by the "Carolina First" fundraising campaign and an endowment that increased fourfold to over $2 billion in just ten years. There is a lot going on here. Maybe break and into 2 or more sentences.

Done. -Hippo (talk)

• In 2007, a professor received a Nobel Prize while at UNC for the first time when Oliver Smithies was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work in genetics.[25] Why not reword to something like: Professor Oliver Smithies was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2007 for his work in Genetics. I don't think first is important here.

Done. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Does he have an article? I would check and if so wiki link. KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be linked now. -Hippo (talk) 15:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• For a school that is so old, the history section is very short. You have to be missing information. Look at Florida Atlantic University, a school that has only been open for 44 years, and the size of its history section. I would start with merging in the information from History of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill into this main article and work from there.
• UNC's sprawling and landscaped 729-acre (3.0 km²) campus is dominated by two central quads. Source? Who said it is sprawling, landscaped, and that it is dominated by two quads? I think quad needs to be wiki linked.

Moved a reference up. Quads is wikilinked. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Students gather in a sunken brick courtyard known as the Pit, often engaging in debate with the Pit Preacher. The Morehead-Patterson Bell Tower, located in the heart of campus, tolls the quarter-hour. In 1999, UNC was one of sixteen recipients of the American Society of Landscape Architects Medallion Awards and was identified as one of 50 college or university "works of art" by T.A. Gaines in his book The Campus as a Work of Art.[2][30] Again, there needs to be a transition and flow. You can't just jump from one piece of information to another.
• A new satellite campus, Carolina North, has recently been proposed and is now in the planning stages. When?

Fixed. -Hippo (talk) 17:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• The most enduring symbol of the university is the Old Well, a small neoclassical rotunda based on the Temple of Love in the Garden of Versailles, in the same location as the original well that provided water for the school. Who said it is the most enduring?

Another things, why did they stop using the well? KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Also in McCorkle Place is the Davie Poplar tree under which the university's founder, William Davie, supposedly selected the location for the university in 1792. Why supposedly? Did he or not? The sources says he didn't. By putting supposedly the casual reader is going to think he did.
• President Bill Clinton. President should be wiki linked.

Done.-Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Another university landmark is Silent Sam, a statue commemorating the soldiers who lost their lives fighting for the Confederacy. Maybe remove "the" and then change "soldiers who lost their lives" to "died".

Done.-Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• The statue is controversial as some claim that the monument reminds them of racism and slavery. Others think that Silent Sam is simply a piece of the rich heritage of the South.[35] Who are some? Who are others? Maybe remove "reminds them" and use "invokes memories" or something like that.

Changed to "invokes memories". -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• What does "state-oriented collection nationwide" mean?

I guess it means that it's the largest collection about an individual U.S. state in the country. How could that better be phrased? -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Something like what you just wrote would be better. KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully fixed. -Hippo (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• The R.B. House Undergraduate Library, also popularly frequented, is located in the same general area. Who says it is popular?

I doubt I'll find a third-party reference, so it's removed.-Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Wilson Library, which was the university's main library prior to the construction of Davis, now houses largely special collections, rare books, and temporary exhibits. What does largely special collections mean? Why not just special collections?

Fixed. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Nationally, UNC is in the top ten public universities for research. Another once sentence paragraph.

Fixed. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• The undergraduate program has ranked in the top 30 in the United States by U.S. News & World Report, and is consistently among the top five public universities, just behind UC Berkeley, University of Virginia, UCLA, and the University of Michigan. Who says it is consistently? The source does not show previous years.

I agree with you. What's the best why to handle this. Source more years or lose the "consistently"? I'm not sure I'll find a source that covers many years. -Hippo (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You could look at the previosu years and say from X through Y years, and then source. KnightLago (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• The undergraduate program has ranked in the top 30 in the United States by U.S. News & World Report, and is consistently among the top five public universities, just behind UC Berkeley, University of Virginia, UCLA, and the University of Michigan.[54] Kiplinger's Personal Finance has also ranked UNC as the number one "best value" public school for in-state students.[55] Similarly, the university is first among public universities and ninth overall in "Great Schools, Great Prices", based on academic quality, net cost of attendance and average student debt.[56] Along with one of the nation's most acclaimed undergraduate honors programs in a public institution, UNC also has the highest percentage of undergraduates studying abroad for any public institution.[36] All need to be qualified with dates or time periods. How are we supposed to know when these rankings were from as they change every year.
• The university has won 33 NCAA team championships in six different sports, ninth all-time, and 51 individual national championships. These include eighteen NCAA championships in women's soccer, five in women's field hockey, four in men's lacrosse, four in men's basketball, one in women's basketball, and one in men's soccer. Source says 32 and tied for 8th, and mentions nothing about individual championships. Nor the breakdown of each. All need proper sourcing.

Fixed the 32/8th. The individual sports are there if you select "North Carolina" from the dropdown, there's just no way to link to the page with it automatically selected. -Hippo (talk) 23:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Consensus collegiate national athlete" needs to be wiki linked or explained.
• Mascot and nickname section could mostly be incorporated into the history.
• September 2007 saw the 112th meeting in football between the two teams. Could be better worded.
• The bitterness of this rivalry has been superseded by somewhat less historical in-state competition with Duke University, North Carolina State University, and Wake Forest University. Who says?
• North Carolina's rivalry with Duke is particularly intense in basketball. Who says?
• For several decades, both teams have been frequent contenders for the national championship, and, located just eight miles (13 km) apart, the students and fans of the two schools are focused in their enmity. The sources doesn't mention their distance nor enmity. Enmity is a mutual hatred. The source simply says passionate.

Changed "enmity" to "passion". How do I source a distance. Maybe I can find a direct mention, but if not, a map? -Hippo (talk) 23:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll give you one source for both assertions. It doesn't use the word "enmity," but rather says "mutual dislike." It also states that the "campuses sit only eight miles apart." Here it is: HBO probes Carolina-Duke rivalry. Get ready for the HBO documentary! Cheers, -Bluedog423^Talk 00:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, though I always wonder how they measure it. I guess it's eight by helicopter, more by car [4]. I like the idea of a showing of the documentary in Raleigh... -Hippo (talk) 03:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• Traditionally, the students exchange pranks with North Carolina State, including painting their "Free Expression Tunnel" blue every year before big athletic competitions. In retaliation, North Carolina State University students travel to Chapel Hill to play their fight song and occasionally dye fountains red. Traditionally means more than once and continual. The article says the painting of the tunnel only happened once. The article does not mention anything about a fight song.

Removed mention of fight song. I don't recall it being played on campus recently anyway. -Hippo (talk) 23:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

This has included painting their "Free Expression Tunnel" blue at least once. The at least once part doesn't sound great.

• School colors could also be added to the history section and better explained as to what the groups were about.
• The organization conducts fundraising and volunteer activities throughout the year and has donated $1.3 million to date since its inception in 1999. To date as of when. Today?

Added date. -Hippo (talk) 15:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Many other philanthropic organizations are at UNC, and the university has a tradition of public service. Source for tradition?

Removed. It's too vague. -Hippo (talk) 15:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• The student run newspaper The Daily Tar Heel is ranked highly by The Princeton Review,[81] and has received the Pacemaker Award from the Associated Collegiate Press.[82] The DTH, as known on campus, presented news services online as early as 1995.[83] How does the Princeton Review rank it highly? When did it receive the award? The source says 1994. You should never use the subject of the sentence as the citation source to back the sentence up. You need to find an independent source.
• On November 7, 1994, WXYC became the first radio station in the world to broadcast its signal over the internet. Again, you need outside sources.
• A student-run television station, STV also exists.[86] It exists?

Changed. -Hippo (talk) 15:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• What is a pep band?

Wikilinked now, is that enough? -Hippo (talk) 17:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. KnightLago (talk) 17:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• The athletic teams at the university are supported by the Marching Tar Heels, the university's marching band. The entire 275-member volunteer band is present at every home football game, and smaller pep bands play at all home basketball games. Each member of the band is also required to play in at least one of five pep bands that play at athletic events of the 26 other sports.[87] UNC has a regional theater company in residence, the Playmakers Repertory Company,[88] and hosts regular dance, drama, and music performances on campus.[89] Again from one statement of facts into something entirely different without any transition.
• Honor societies such as the Order of the Golden Fleece, the Order of the Grail-Valkyries, and the Order of the Old Well also exist.[91] Exist is not a sufficient explanation.
• Prior to that time, the Dialectic and Philanthropic Societies as well as other organizations supported student concerns.[96] The wiki link should be used when they are first mentioned. At the first mention you have no idea what they are.
• On campus, the 32 residence halls are grouped into thirteen "communities", varying from the Olde Campus Upper Quad Community which includes Old East, the oldest building of the university, to modern communities such as Manning West, completed in 2002. Needs to be rewritten, something like: On-campus housing includes 32 residence halls grouped... What are communities?
• Ok, in the next sentence you explain it. But it seems more like an afterthought. You should reword these two sentence to be more clear.
• Does this university have any alumni? If so they need their own section with citations to each person mentioned and then a separate article where all the notable alumni are.
• This image was deleted off of commons after I talked to a few admins over there. It was listed under a license restricting it to only non-commercial use and commons does not allow those images. I was told that if you want to use it you need to upload it to Wikipedia and claim fair use.

That's a pity, I didn't notice that. It would be nice to use, but does it really qualify for fair-use? -Hippo (talk) 17:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

According to the commons admins it does. Irreplaceable, etc. KnightLago (talk) 17:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• References need some work, after a very very brief glance over 8 has 2 periods after Jr, 48, 55, 57, 66, 77 and others have no access/retrieval dates. You need to go through and check every one.

Someone ran AWB over the article and it seems to affected the template fields. The dates are there I'll have to work out why they aren't showing. -Hippo (talk) 17:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems someone has actually commented out the accessdate field for journal articles. I'll have to use a different template I guess.... -Hippo (talk) 18:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you have made some progress, but still have a long way to go. The history needs to be expanded for such an old university. I don't recall one single piece of negative information in this entire article. In fact it currently leans toward a pro-POV. Has there been no controversy, criticism, riots, fires, etc. throughout the university's entire history? You also need more information about the students. Racial makeup, women vs. men, acceptance rates and selectivity, entering GPA, etc. You also need to find sources that do not relate to UNC. If you have a UNC source, look for another source that says the same thing and use that source. I suggest you request a copyedit from the WP:LoCE, rewrite and add the sections mentioned above, get another peer review, and then come back here. The article has improved a lot, but it still has a way to go. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. KnightLago (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all your comments. I'll keep working on it! -Hippo (talk) 17:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, look at the other universities that are already featured articles and see how they are formatted. This will give you an idea of what works and how the other featured articles were written. KnightLago (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Status of opposes? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

My oppose still stands. The article needs to rely more on independent sources and not websites owned by the university. Karanacs (talk) 12:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Can I have a couple more days? I'm still working on sources. It's a little unfair on the Southern Historical Collection not to allow the sources since they reside on a university-owned website, though, as much of the history of North Carolina has been digitized onto UNC servers. Either way, I'll try to replace them. Hippo (talk) 15:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Copyeditor? Can anyone here help copyedit this article (as it's been suggested a couple of times). It seems WP:LoCE is no more... Hippo (talk) 20:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

My oppose still stands as well. The article still has a ways to go as my comments show. I was unaware the LoCE went historical. That is too bad. KnightLago (talk) 17:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.