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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/U-1-class submarine (Austria-Hungary)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:26, 20 September 2018 [1].

U-1-class submarine (Austria-Hungary) edit

Nominator(s): White Shadows Let’s Talk 18:35, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Back to work on submarines. This time, I've taken an old gem that @Bellhalla: wrote many years ago, added every exhaustible source I own and have come across, and doubled the size of the article over the course of my work. Bellhalla deserves a heck of a lot of credit for helping to get this article to A-class as well. I wish he were still active on Wikipedia to see it finally make it to FAC. NOTE: Despite his apparent retirement from Wikipedia, if this article passes this FAC, I would like Bellhalla to be given co-credit.

Now, about the article itself. The U-1 class was Austria-Hungary's first attempt at acquiring submarines for their navy. Built by an American naval architect, the ships had several interesting design mechanics that you don't often see on many other submarines, such as a diving chamber to enter and exit the submarine while it was underwater, as well as wheels (yes, wheels) to travel along the seafloor. As an experimental design, not all of the components of the U-1 class worked out in the end (the wheels proved to be entirely useless), and it was widely lambasted as a failure (in particular, the engines of both ships were a major issue, nearly killing their crews with poison gas before they were replaced).

That said, the ships were never really intended to do more than simply give Austro-Hugnarian naval officers a ship to study, and new sailors a submarine to train with. In that regard, the ships had a long (if not boring) career. Used mostly for training purposes, the ships were occasionally assigned with recon missions out of Trieste and Pola during World War I, but neither ship sank any enemy vessels during the war. Declared obsolete in January 1918, the ships were again relegated to training missions before being put up at Pola right before the end of the war. After a brief period of political chaos regarding who owned the vessels following the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the ships were first seized by, and later granted to, Italy in 1920. The Italians decided to immediately scrap the ships in Pola that same year.White Shadows Let’s Talk 18:35, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Chetsford edit

This is one of the most fascinating submarine articles I've ever read. In addition, it's impressively illustrated. I have a few minor nitpicks, none of which would rise to the level of impeding my support.

  • An experimental design, the submarines included unique designs such as a diving chamber and wheels for traveling along the seabed. - I don't know if the second "design" can be replaced with "features" or some other word so it doesn't read quite so redundantly. Maybe not, though.
  • While the U-1 class submarines were already outdated by 1915, their relocation to the port helped to dissuade Italian plans to bombard the port, as Italian military intelligence suggested the submarines were on regular patrol in the waters off Trieste. - Similarly to the above, I wonder if the second use of the word "port" could be replaced with "it" or anything else?
  • In addition, U-2 underwent an additional refit in Pola and had a new conning tower installed on 4 June 1915. - As above, I wonder if "an additional" could be replaced with "a further" or a similar word?
  • The ships would prove to be a disappointment however. - I believe there should be a comma separating "disappointment" and "however".
  • submarines were initended - I think it could be this is intended to be intended?

Chetsford (talk) 19:40, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the support! I believe I have made all these changes in the article now. If I’m missing anything please let me know because I like the suggestions you gave. Word repetition in a sentence is one of my pet peeves.—White Shadows Let’s Talk 19:56, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:SM_U-1_(Austria-Hungary).jpg needs a stronger FUR if it is to be included, and what steps have been taken to try to ascertain copyright status?
  • I've actually got another photo I can put in place of the lead image. Bellhalla put in place the copyright notice just to be careful but it’s almost certain that the photo is PD by now. Regardless, I can just replace it if need be.
  • Replaced with another photo from the article body.
  • File:Lake-class.png: how do we know this image is accurate?
  • Shipbucket explains how their artists go about drawing ships, and when you compare their stated scale to the dimensions of these submarines in question it checks out, but I have no independent way to confirm this unfortunately. I’m not even sure how to do such a thing to be honest.
  • I've removed the photo just to be on the safe side, though I wish there was a way to verify the accuracy as having a cross section of the ship would be a great idea.
  • File:Simon.Lake.jpg: when/where was this first published?
  • I don’t have an answer to that ATM as it came from Lake’s own Wikipedia article, but I can certainly look that up and get you an answer.
  • Ok, so I wasn't able to ascertain the date of the photo of Mr. Lake, but the fact that a copy of that exact photo can be found here tells me that it is most certainly in the public domain. I can swap out the images and sources for them if you'd like, just so we have a more ironclad link to a site that proves the photo is in the PD.

Nikkimaria (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM edit

I've done a cheeky c/e, feel free to revert anywhere you don't think I've improved the prose of changed meaning.

  • suggest adding in a bit to the lead about the conclusions drawn about the boats per the U-1 Milhist ACR comment
  • done
  • suggest adding info about the range of the deck gun and range and speed of the torpedoes, per U-1 Milhist ACR comment
  • If I can get this info via the ACR on U-1 I'll certainly add it in.
  • link sea trials
  • done
  • I expected to see the power plant details in the body
  • done

Just check the U-1 Milhist ACR to make sure I haven't missed something from there that is relevant here. Otherwise, this is looking good from my perspective. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done! I've applied all of the relevant changes from the U-1 ACR to this article as well.--White Shadows Let’s Talk 02:00, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MOD edit

Support. Nice article. --MarchOrDie (talk) 10:55, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66 edit

  • WP:INFOBOXCITE discourages cites in infoboxes. I strongly suggest that you rework your general characteristics section to cover all of the info in the infobox with the appropriate cites and links. There are plenty of GA class submarine articles that you can use as a model.
  • I've removed most of the citations which cover info already explained in detail in the article body. The remaining citations will be removed once I've added that info to the article. There's I think two or three pieces of info that still need to be added.
  • Done
  • The first part of the 3rd para of the lede is a bit too detailed. I'd delete the second and third sentences.
  • Done
  • 12 battleships, 4 armored cruisers, 8 scout cruisers, 18 destroyers, 36 high seas torpedo craft link all of these terms
  • Done
  • The design also placed the diving tanks above the waterline of the cylindrical hull, which necessitated a heavy ballast keel for vertical stability. The location of the diving tanks also necessitated flooding to be done by pumps. Combine these sentences and use required rather than necessitated.
  • Done
  • Each submarine was also armed with a 37-millimeter (1.5 in) deck gun. These guns were installed on both submarines in 1917, then removed in January 1918 when the ships resumed training duties. Awkward. Combine these and say that the subs were not initially armed with deck guns.
  • Reworded the sentence. Let me know if you'd like further changes there.
  • Flooding the diving tanks, which was necessary to submerge both submarines, had to be flooded by pumps Redundant.
  • Fixed. Let me know if you'd like further changes.
  • Not fixed. You already told the reader that pumps were required to flood the diving (more properly ballast) tanks. What you want to do is to add the first clause of this sentence to the next sentence, deleting the next two clauses.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've re-read this a few times now and I can't quite get what's wrong...We've currently got Flooding the diving tanks, which was necessary to submerge both submarines, had to be done by pumps. I could cut out much of this and merge it with the next sentence to say "Flooding the diving tanks took over 14 minutes and 37 seconds in early tests, but was later reduced to 8 minutes." if that helps, but I'm starting to get confused/lost here as to what exactly the issue is...
  • Sorry for being not clear. You already told the reader that the subs need pumps to fill the ballast tanks, so that part is redundant. And why are you now saying "both submarines" There wasn't much to distinguish between them, so why make the distinction now? So yes, "Flooding the diving tank..." is exactly what I wanted you to say because those two sentences were essentially about the diving time. Everything else was redundant or pointless and that's what I was trying to convey to you without actually saying it. It's always better if you can figure out what the issue is yourself, IMO, without it just being handed to you. And there's always the possibility that you might think of a better way of wording it.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, just poor choice of words when I wrote "both submarines". I've changed that to say "the submarines". I've now got the sentence to read Flooding the diving tanks, which was necessary to submerge the submarines, had to be done by pumps. This took over 14 minutes and 37 seconds in early tests, but which was later reduced to 8 minutes. Personally, I think this is pretty good...I would be open to changing it to say Flooding the diving tanks of the submarines had to be done by pumps. This process took over 14 minutes and 37 seconds in early tests, but was later reduced to 8 minutes. I'm personally fine with either line. If there's a consensus for one or the other, I'll happily go over and make the needed changes.
  • You've already told the reader that the diving tanks had to flooded by pumps, why do you want to reemphasize it?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:12, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about Flooding the diving tanks, which was necessary to submerge the submarines, took over 14 minutes and 37 seconds in early tests. This was later reduced to 8 minutes.
That would be great.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add the speeds attained to the general characteristics with a link to knots
  • Done
  • Link sea trials, Aegean Sea, bhp, shp, knots, nmi, torpedo tubes, South Slav in the infobox and main body.
  • Done
  • Added "armored" in-front of "cruiser Sankt Georg.
  • Thanks for the comments Strum! I've made several edits in accordance with these points and will get around to finishing up the rest as soon as possible.--White Shadows Let’s Talk 19:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've cleaned up the infobox, removing many redundant links in conversions, gotta watch that. I also removed your specified output of km from the conversions for knots and nautical miles. That conversion automatically outputs into statute miles and kilometers so you needn't specify the output at all. I left those conversions and excess links in the main body for you. Running the duplicate links checker will highlight those for you.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick question, if a link is in the lead or the infobox, should it not be repeated at all in the article? I've been operating off the belief that you can link it once more in the body of the article but that's it.--White Shadows Let’s Talk 02:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:DUPLINK says: Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead. So generally you can link in the lede and once in the mainbody.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Parsecboy edit

  • I don't think "Lake class" should be italicized, since the name is from the designer, not the name of one of the vessels.
  • Removed the italics
  • "Kaiserliche und Königliche" should be lowercase.
  • Good catch. Fixed
  • "Safety and efficient" -> efficiency.
  • Fixed
  • This may be a USNism, but submarines are generally boats, not ships, in my experience.
  • I've changed every relevant reference of "ship" or "ships" when describing the U-1 class to "boat" or "boats".
  • "Indeed, the U-1 class submarines were intended to spend most of their time on the surface..." - this is true of all submarines up to the Type XXI
  • That is indeed true, but I think the point here was that the submarines were supposed to spend a very, very limited amount of time underwater...as in, far less than the usual submarine of the period.
  • I don't know that that's accurate, though - even most WWII-era boats only submerged to attack or evade. It wasn't a doctrinal idea (which is what the article seemingly presents it as), it was a simple technological constraint. Batteries only hold so much power, and diesels can't generally be run underwater. Parsecboy (talk) 23:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've removed the sentence in question. I'm sure there's a better way to word things but you made a good counter-point.
  • "navy yard (German:Seearsenal)" - I wonder if this is a useful translation
  • Does it hurt to have the German translation for what was an official government institution? The Pola Navy Yard was owned and operated by the Austro-Hungarian Navy. If it's pointless to have the translation in there I can definitely take it out, I just don't see the harm in keeping it in.
  • If you had the name as a proper noun in English, it would make sense to have the translation, but if not, then it doesn't so much. Parsecboy (talk) 23:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good point. That has been fixed.

Up through the Construction section so far, will read the rest later tonight. Parsecboy (talk) 21:06, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the review thus far Parsec! I'll be sure to keep an eye out for any further points.--White Shadows Let’s Talk 23:14, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "overran the Ottoman Empire's last remaining European possessions" - not strictly true, as the Ottomans held out at the Çatalca Line, and they retained a sizeable chunk of East Thrace under the Treaty of London.
  • Re-written to say "most of the Ottoman Empire's remaining European possessions"
  • Done
  • You might consider splitting the infobox into two separate technical sections to make it less cluttered - see Japanese battleship Hyūga for an example of how to do this. Parsecboy (talk) 23:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would only put the details that changed in the second infobox to make the changes clearer. Parsecboy (talk) 09:54, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
  • All of these points should now be addressed. I'll be sure to make changes in line with what we now have in the main article if I ever try to bring SM U-1 and SM U-2 to FA-status.--White Shadows Let’s Talk 04:31, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Spotchecks not done

  • Source for Ships section?
  • Added citations
  • The ISBN given for Baumgartner & Sieche appears to be for volume 1, while the website given specifies volume 2
  • Good catch! That has been corrected.
  • Check alphabetization of References
  • Fixed
  • Mitchell ref appears malformatted
  • Fixed
  • What makes Novak a high-quality reliable source?
  • I'm glad you asked! Novak's work makes great use of info provided to him by the West Bohemia Museum and the Skoda Museum (as he acknowledges and thanks in the opening of his book). Perhaps most importantly, Novak also acknowledges at the beginning of his book that he consulted with René Greger for much of the technical data of Austria-Hungary's U-boats and their armament, which is a huge plus for reliability in my opinion as Greger is largely considered to be one of the experts in Austro-Hungarian Naval history. You will not find a single article about any ship in the K.u.K. Kriegsmarine that does not cite Greger (and if you do, please let me know so I can fix that immediately). Other scholars Novak cites include Sokol, Bilzer, and Sieche (all three of which are considered experts on the subject of the Austro-Hungarian Navy). Included in his bibliography are no less than 40 German, Hungarian, and Czech-language articles, manuscripts, and books about the Austro-Hungarian Navy and Austria-Hungary's U-boat fleet. The copy I have is an English translation of Novak's original work, which itself was written in Czech. It's a relatively new book (at least the English translation...the Czech copy was first published in 2001), so I haven't seen it cited in other books yet (most works I have are dated back to the 1970s-1990s, and some are contemporary with the era (1890s-1910s), but everything I've seen tells me this is a serious scholarly work.

Coord note edit

This one seems close but I think we could do with at least one more review -- Parsecboy or Sturmvogel 66, could one of you pls have look? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I'll take a look later today.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:43, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a look too. Parsecboy (talk) 17:35, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Parsecboy and Sturmvogel 66, just following up with this.—White Shadows Let’s Talk 13:53, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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