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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tom Simpson/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 04:34, 8 July 2015 [1].

Tom Simpson edit

Nominator(s): BaldBoris 17:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Tom Simpson, one of Britain's most successful professional cyclists. I brought it up to GA back in 2013 and I'm keen to get it to FA, ideally on the front page on 13 July (the anniversary of his death). It's had a thorough copy edit thanks to Miniapolis over at WP:GOCE. The peer review only had one user's (Brianboulton) help. One thing I've found hard is toning down the cycling detail in the prose. All comments are welcome. Thanks. BaldBoris 17:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support I thought this was able to pass FA when it passed GA. Solid work here. Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:44, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Like Disc Wheel, I felt that this article was able to pass FA when it was already at GA. I also note that BaldBoris has proposed 13 July for a potential showing if it was to be promoted...It could equally be sufficient for 5 September, as that would mark the 50th anniversary of him becoming world champion. But other than that, would be delighted to see this reach the top echelon. Pardon the pun. Craig(talk) 18:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – with a few prefatory niggles:

  • "semifinals" – the OED hyphenates the word
  • "center" – American spelling
  • "license" (noun) – ditto
  • "bedrest" – another word for which the OED prescribes a hyphen
  • "pedaling" – another American spelling
  • "kilometers" (twice) – ditto
  • "That's my years supply of Micky Finns" – I can see that this is in a quote, but it might be worth checking that the source really does get "year's" and "Mickey Finns" wrong. So be it, if so.
  • duplicate links:
    • individual time trial
    • breakaway
    • Fausto Coppi
    • Jean-Claude Annaert
    • Raymond Louviot
    • world road race champion
    • Paris–Tours
    • Circuit de Provençal
    • Trofeo Baracchi
    • road world championships
    • Rudi Altig
    • six-day race
    • Felice Gimondi
    • Vin Denson
    • Eddy Merckx
    • Alan Ramsbottom
    • Cycling magazine
  • References
    • I spotted one ref (in "Personal life") where the citations were in this order: [282][79][153]. There may be other such cases: please check. For FA it is usual to have all refs cited in numerical order at each occurrence.

The subject of the article is so far outside my areas of expertise – such as they are – that my comments on the content must be seen as those of a well-disposed ignoramus. At 8,400 words the article is evidently comprehensive, and seems, to my layman's eye, to stick to the essentials; the referencing is full and varied; and the prose passes muster (I ignore its regrettable tendency to use the false title). I feel confident in supporting. Tim riley talk 21:21, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback Tim. All fixed. The quote was my mistake, good spot! BaldBoris 01:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton edit

It's a very detailed article, obviously the result of some devoted work, but I feel that the prose is still unpolished in places, and in my view it's going to need more work if it is to pass FAC. I've only read the Childhood and Track years sections, but I've picked up quite a few quibbles and a few more significant points. I've also made a few adjustments myself. Here is what I've got:

Childhood and club racing
  • "To upgrade his bike, he delivered groceries in the Bassetlaw district by bicycle and traded with a customer for a better road bike." - Clunky as it stands; I suggest you remove the first four words.
  • "Simpson began winning club time trials at his club" – delete the last three words
  • "In late 1955, Simpson was suspended from racing after a dispute between the two governing bodies of cycling in Britain (the NCU and the BLRC); both bodies agreed that if any rider committed an offence under the Road Traffic Act, they would incur a suspension." There is no evidence here of any dispute: rather, the two bodies seem to be in agreement.
  • "Simpson was caught by police failing to stop at a stop sign, and was banned for six months." I think you have combined two separate events here. It was not the police that banned him.
I originally overcomplicated it and then was lost further during the GOCE job. BaldBoris 01:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Track years
  • General point, here and elsewhere: too much use of parentheses for subordinate clauses - normal punctuation should be used, unless the clause is a definite aside.
This was the GOCE editors style. I don't want to blame anyone, but I'm not skilled enough to tamper with it. BaldBoris 01:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Cartwright gave him diet advice, lent him a track bike and developed his technique" - I would say "helped him develop his technique"
  • "Reg Harris, a 1948 Olympic silver medallist, was brought in to train with Simpson." I find this wording odd. Harris at the time was at the peak of his fame – 1954 world champion, among the best-known sportsmen of his day – and it is not feasible that he could simply be "brought in" to train with a novice.
It seems to have been just a one-off session, so I cut it. BaldBoris 03:24, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The seven-rider contingent began in Leningrad, continuing to Moscow before finishing in Sofia." First, Sofia is in Bulgaria, not the (then) Soviet Union. Secondly, as written the sentence reads as though the team raced from Leningrad to Sofia, whereas I imagine this was the itinerary for a series of events.
  • "In spring 1958 he raced in the Daily Herald Trophy at the White Monday Meeting at Fallowfield before racing in Sofia with Sheil for two weeks and winning the national individual pursuit championship at Herne Hill Velodrome." Too much information for a single sentence. Perhaps: "In spring 1958 he raced in the Daily Herald Trophy at the White Monday Meeting at Fallowfield, before travelling to Sofia with Sheil for two weeks' racing. On his return he won the national individual pursuit championship at Herne Hill Velodrome."
  • In the brief peer review I carried out 18 months ago I expressed some concern that the prose might be more suitable for a cycling mag than a general encyclopaedia. This is still a problem. An example is "Against reigning world champion Carlo Simonigh of Italy in the opening round of the individual pursuit, his wheel got caught in the guttering tyre at the end of the race; when he bunny hopped his bike out, his tyre burst as it hit a crack in the concrete track". General readers won't know what "guttering tyre" means, and the term "bunny hopped his bike out" is equally hard to follow, even with the link.
  • Another general point: I am getting the feeling, as I read through, that there is substantial overdetailing, particularly in the sections dealing with Simpson's early career. I don't think it's necessary to refer to almost every race Simpson entered; there is scope for considerable summarisation.

I'll read on, although my time is somewhat limited. Brianboulton (talk) 23:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I truly appreciated your help on this. I think I've neglected these sections thinking they were fine. BaldBoris 01:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments:

Track years (continued)
  • "Although he was in pain, team manager Benny Foster forced him to race in the quarterfinal against New Zealand's Warwick Dalton as a strategic move favouring Simpson's teammate Sheil, who won the gold medal." Needs more explanation if it's to make sense.
  • Why the citation string ([15][43][44][45])? Looks like over-citation
Move to Brittany
  • "The next day, his National Service papers were delivered; although willing to serve before his move, he later avoided conscription." This needs brief explanation: how did he "avoid" conscription?
  • What does it mean to be "underneath" the professional team?
  • More citation strings: it is simply unnecessary to cite straightforward facts to four sources.
1959
Foundations
  • "He expected to progress further..." – do you mean "He had expected to progress further..." (than the q-finals)?
  • "He retired from the Giro di Lombardia with a tyre puncture while in the lead group of riders, his first appearance in one of the five "monuments" of cycling." The sentence is wrongly constructed. Suggested rephrase: "In his first appearance in the Giro di Lombardia, one of the five "monuments" of cycling, he retired with a tyre puncture while in the lead group of riders."
1960
Tour debut
  • Shouldn't the title be "Tour de France debut"?
  • "the now-famous" – beware WP:WEASEL (see "puffery")
  • "His televised effort launched his career, and he was now known throughout Europe". Surely something of an overstatement? "Known throughout Europe" implies international fame acquired over a long and successful career, rather than from a single TV race appearance. I would modify the wording.
  • "At age 22" is American English. Delete the "at" and say "aged 22".
  • "failing to recover" suggests that he dropped out of the Tour altogether. Yet he completed all the remaining stages of the race to finish in 29th place
  • "He struggled in the last of the classics, finishing 84th in the Giro di Lombardia." Again, an odd sentence construction: "In the last of the classics, the Giro di Lombardia, he struggled, finishing 84th".

All I have time for at present, but I'll continue. Brianboulton (talk) 22:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All done. Thanks again. BaldBoris 01:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More:

1961 Tour of Flanders and injury
  • "As the race reached the paved section, he went on a solo attack and was told that Mercier-BP-Hutchinson rider Raymond Poulidor was chasing him down." "And" is not appropriate here, and I would like to know how he was told. Something like: "As the race reached the paved section he went on a solo attack, at which point his team-mates told him that Mercier-BP-Hutchinson rider Raymond Poulidor was chasing him down " – assuming that is accurate.
The sources just say he heard or was told. His teammates wouldn't have been able to from behind in the race, so it would have been either his team's support car or a service vehicle. BaldBoris
  • "catching the vehicles in front". Perhaps you should elaborate: "catching the team cars and other motor vehicles..." etc
  • I think he "collected" rather than "retrieved" the replacement wheel. To "retrieve" is to get something back, not to replace something.
  • His injury had not healed; after seeing several specialists, he had to ride, for financial reasons, in the Tour de France with the British team." I am confused by this. Are you saying that the "financial reasons" arose from his seeing several specialists? That's how it reads at the moment. I suspect, however, that what you mean is that his injury had not healed, even after treatment by various specialists, but for financial reasons he was forced to enter the Tour de France. Perhaps you can clarify, and adjust the prose accordingly.
1962 Yellow jersey
  • "Simpson moved to Ghent, Belgium" - Do you mean that he set up home in Ghent? If so, when, and why? In any event, Ghent should be linked.
  • Consistency in use of dashes is required. For example, you write "Paris–Nice" but "Milan – San Remo". Why is the latter linked on second rather than first mention?
This was brought up in the GA reveiw. The problem is with Milan – San Remo, see Talk:Milan – San Remo. Should bring it up at WikiProject Cycling? BaldBoris 23:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Milan – San Remo is linked on the first mention. There's two piped links in their respective sections: 1964 Milan – San Remo and 1967 Milan – San Remo. BaldBoris 01:14, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He would become his team's leader..." Was he not already his team's leader?
  • "As the highest placed rider of the group in the GC before the stage..." For clarity I would reword this: "As he finished ahead of all the other leaders in the GC,..."
  • I found he paranthetical reference to Boardman unnecessary and distracting. Also another citation string at the end of th paragraph.
I dropped it, and the one about Cavendish in 1965 too. BaldBoris 01:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He began six-day racing into his winter breakaway." What does this mean – what is a winter "breakaway"?
Is break clear enough? BaldBoris 01:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1963 Bordeaux–Paris
  • Why did Simpson withdraw from the Paris-Nice race? If it was simply because he was no longer in contention, youn should say so.
  • Again, why the spaces around the dashes in "Milan – San Remo"?

I'm about halfway through, now. It is, I must say, very hard going; the relentless detailing of race after race without interruption is difficult for readers, particularly those with very little knowledge of cycle racing. Did Simpson do absolutely nothing else in his life except race? I see there is a little information in the brief "Personal life" section, at the end of the article, but a little leavening throughout the text would have humanised Simpson, who is presented here as little more than a robot. Maybe it's not too late for some careful restructuring. To be continued. Brianboulton (talk) 22:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I totally understand your point. Although I must say though, professional cyclists ride bikes non-stop and don't have time for much else. It's never going to be a great read to, lets say, a science enthusiast, equally, an article on a type of flower won't interest a sports fan. Very hard to please everyone. I actually planned to include his life outside cycling in the pro career section but thought it wasn't done. Will have a good go at that and trim down the reeling off of results. BaldBoris 23:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I realise that there is little you can do to make his life more varied than it was – though I wonder whether his performance in pretty well every race he entered, including relatively minor ones, has to be recorded? I'm taking a 24-hour break from reviewing, which will give you a chance to do the trimming and other adjustments you refer to, and I'll return at the weekend. Brianboulton (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm up to date with your suggestions now. I've done the trimming and will try to add something from his life in all of the sections. I'm away for the weekend, but will be able to get online. BaldBoris 01:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't see why the non-standard format has to be used in Milan – San Remo. If it's because that's how the title of the Wikipedia article is formatted, use a pipe thus: Milan–San Remo. Please note here and here and here – no spaces around the dashes. Brianboulton (talk) 20:22, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some more reviewing:

1964 Milan–San Remo
  • "Two days later..." It would help if there were some earlier date indicators
  • Poulidor should have been linked on first mention, earlier in the article.
  • "a group of 22 riders (including Simpson) finished on a cinder track" – what's the significance of mentioning the cinder track? Did the other riders finish somewhere else?
  • "25 minutes and ten seconds behind" – don't mix text and numerics. Also, "behind the race leader", if that is the case.
  • "Simpson later discovered that he rode the Tour with tapeworms". I'd say "suffering from" rather than "with", which reads rather oddly.
  • "With the race reduced to five riders..." and then "Simpson was repeatedly overtaken, finishing 21st." How come?
Is cracked OK?. BaldBoris 00:55, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My query was, how could Simpson finish in 21st position in a race that apparently only had 5 competitors. Brianboulton (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1965. World championship and Lombardia
  • "Simpson and his friend Albert Beurick supplied food and drink, stealing from other teams". I don't think "supplied" is the word; I suggest "Simpson and his friend Albert Beurick obtaind food and drink by stealing from other teams".
  • " Simpson was offered lucrative contracts by teams, including Flandria-Faema-Clément, offering him the years salary up front." Mangled syntax and punctuation here, and repetition. Something like: " Simpson was offered lucrative contracts by teams, including Flandria-Faema-Clément who were prepared to pay him the year's salary in advance".
  • Link Super Prestige Pernod International, and better preced it with "the"
It's linked in the 1963 section? BaldBoris 00:55, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(with Formula One world champion Jim Clark finishing second) – entirely irrelevant as far as I can see.
1966. An injury ridden season
  • I've made a few minor prose adjustments.

I'll complete the review tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 22:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

These are my final comments:

1967. Paris–Nice and Vuelta stages
  • First paragraph: A clearer explanation is needed as to how Simpson could be the leader of the "British team", and at the same time co-leader of the Italian team Salvarani. Surely, conflicts of interest would arise between the two appointments?
I don't understand your confusion. National teams, as I'm led to believe, only participated at the Tour de France (occasionally) and the world champs. Salvarani never raced against the British team. If you mean how can he share leadership of Salvarani, but not the British, well, this is commonplace on pro teams. He was outright leader of the British team. BaldBoris 02:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He planned to attempt the hour record" – needs a bit more amplification
  • You mention Merckx's age twice, in text and in caption. Surely once is enough?
  • "Simpson rode away from peloton" – "the" missing
  • "by which time the race has passed" had passed?
  • "In an interview, Tour de France physician Pierre Dumas revealed that Simpson told him that he was taken to hospital during the Vuelta". I'm not sure you need this, but if think it's important you should indicate when the interview took place and who it was with.
Death
  • What caused Dumas to make the 6.30 am statement: " If the riders take something [drugs] today, we'll have a death on our hands"? Was it that excessive heat was forecast?
  • "Simpson, still ill, was seen washing pills down with brandy" – who saw him?
  • General point: The habit of putting minor subordinate clauses in parentheses, e.g. (one of which was labelled "Tonedron") should be resisted. I've knocked out a few - perhaps you'd deal with the remainder.
  • What does the description of Mercks as "the only continental professional" mean? That every other continental rider was an amateur?
Changed it to "the only continental rider in attendance" BaldBoris 02:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Doping
  • "although he implied that other competitors were involved" – do you mean that he implied that he himself was not involved? Obviously he thought others were.
  • "Lewis recalled Simpson acquiring a small box from outside at their room's door." This is excessively awkward phrasing - try to polosh it.
Riding style and legacy
  • A "fearful" descender? It sounds from the description as though he was fearless.
It's what's printed [2]. A misquote? BaldBoris 02:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Simpson's death was contributed to his unwillingness to admit defeat ascending Mont Ventoux". I think you mean "attributed"
  • ""He said he felt peace of mind and wasn't afraid to die. He said he would have been happy dying." Clarify that it is Denson saying this.
Family and interests
  • "Soon after moving to France in 1959 the Simpson met Helen Sherburn": the Simpson?
  • "who's" → "whose"
General

I'm impressed by the amount of research behind this article, less impressed by the rather unseemly haste with which people have rushed to support it at FAC when it contained far too many basic prose errors. Some of these I have corrected myself and others I've raised in the review. I have done what I can, and can't spend any more time on it. It probably needs another pair of eyes, when you have have made the required changes. I'm sure it will get there in the end. Brianboulton (talk) 23:35, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I greatly appreciate your time given to this Brian. I'm sorry if you thought it would be easier. If I do another FAC, I won't make the same mistakes. BaldBoris 02:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK edit

  • File:Tom_Simpson_1969_Ajman_stamp.jpg - Maybe it's just me, but his portrait looks like the artist's stylized impression and not like a natural portrait. Have you considered other alternatives? Even a black/white image with a more natural portrait could work as lead image. (Copyright-wise this one would be OK, if no better photo is available).
I know what you mean, but I'm sure it's just because of it's a scan of a stamp. I had a cropped version of this non-free until recently, when I saw it on commons. There's almost no chance of another free portrait. BaldBoris 01:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If the stamp shows a realistic portrait and is suitable for identification, I am afraid we can't use a non-free variant for the same purpose (WP:NFCC #1). It would have to be a PD photo. But as I said, if you can't find a PD alternative, the current image is OK. (GJ)
Does that mean all the images in the category should be deleted? BaldBoris 01:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Commons has been quite strict about FoP violations in the past, but I have posted a request for further advice at Commons:Commons:Village pump/Copyright to verify the current handling (I wasn't aware about the whole batch of similar photos, thanks). Suggest to remove the image for now (if I am completely on the wrong track, it can be easily re-inserted). GermanJoe (talk) 09:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Image has been deleted and replaced - the new image should be OK under de-minimis considerations (memorial is not the image's main focus).
  • All other images are PD (the dresses are PD-simple imo) or CC and have sufficient source and author info - OK.
  • MOS:CAPTION - please check all captions: complete, grammatically correct sentences should end with a period. GermanJoe (talk) 00:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is obviously a well-written and very well-documented article earning to be promoted. One remark about the Freedom of Panorama act in France, as I am familiar with the Belgian code - which is similar to the Panorama act in France. There is no freedom of distribution, but the act is very unlikely to be imposed. Images need only be removed if there is an official complaint, which rarely occurs. Dr.robin (talk) 17:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I'll give the article a proper review in the nest few days, but it looks good. One thing I did notice wss that the tables in the results section do not meet WP:ACCESS. You need to row and col scopes to these to ensure they are accessible to people who use screenreaders to browse the site. Good work. NapHit (talk) 20:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks NapHit, your input would be great. I'll sort out the tables. BaldBoris 01:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More

  • "before taking the general classification..." taking doesn't sound right to me, perhaps change to "and won the..."?
  • I would perhaps move ref 4 and 6 to after 1943, as refs are supposed to come after punctuation
  • "at and engineering..." think this is a typo
  • I'd perhaps move the ref about the poggio being used for the first time, to directly after it is mentioned. Just so it is clear that it is referenced
  • "he alone for about..." missing a word here
  • "that he began following Simpson's death..." this reads oddly to me
  • ref 265, seems to be missing something, as there is a red help sign next to it

Other than these quibbles, this is a fantastic article that details the subject extremely well. Great work. NapHit (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers for that. The citation error has driven me crazy on the numerous times I've tried to fixed it. The error shows when |series= is missing from {{cite episode}}, even though the error says |title=. The problem is that the radio episode was a one-off? There was a discussion about it which stalled. BaldBoris 20:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's not going to stop me from Supporting the article. As a cycling aficionado, it is a great read though I can relate to Brian's point about it being a bit hard for the layman to read. NapHit (talk) 19:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - just 2 minor points (unfortunately I won't have time for a full detailed SR):

  • Refs #290 and #296 have no page numbers. If possible, you should provide page information for all book references and other large sources.
I was just referencing the actual books. Added Roman numerals to the edition notice. BaldBoris 20:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article uses "Simpson 2000" twice (ref #97 and #102). Should that be 2009? (or is it a second book source of the same author?). GermanJoe (talk) 20:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yea added these yesterday, silly me. BaldBoris 20:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - I'll continue this then: Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

material faithful to ref 169's source.
material faithful to ref 81's source.
material faithful to ref 198's source.
Material from sources in McGann & McGann 2008 all faithful and good.
I ran this though Earwig's Copyvio Detector and got this result. Now I was alarmed at first look but the latter page is from this one. The second article is clear and fine.

some prose issues:

Simpson's risk-taking on descents was visible throughout his career - "evident" is a better adjective here....
In mid-September, Simpson competed for two weeks in Eastern European against Russian and Italian teams to prepare for the Olympics. - "Eastern Europe", right?
Can't link to a foreign language wikipedia article directly - Carlo Simonigh needs an en.wiki stub, not linked to the italian one, and Tour del Sud-Est needs an english stub, not a link to the Catalan wikipage...

The prose and comprehensiveness look ok otherwise. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:50, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the source check and comments Cas. Regarding the interlanguage links, I can't see anything at H:IL discouraging their use. Also was there a reason why you didn't mention these:
If you just missed them, shall I unlink them, if you still think they shouldn't be used? BaldBoris 22:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Look, you're right, I can't see anything there so don't worry about the foreign links. Support then. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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