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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sonic: After the Sequel/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose (talk) 23:17, 19 August 2014 [1].

Sonic: After the Sequel edit

Sonic: After the Sequel (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Tezero (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My last FAC met a rare and gruesome end. Due to the greater depth of the sources available, this one is unlikely to follow it, and I've fixed it up a bunch since its GAN, mostly through helpful comments made at its peer review, so here it is.

Anyway, if you pay attention to the gaming world, you're probably aware that most Sonic the Hedgehog games from the mid-2000s onward have not been well-received. At all. Gaming articles abound in lamentation of how Sega can't just let its furred children die, but one Brazilian fan disagreed. He's enjoyed near-every odd detour the series has taken, and over a couple of years, he combined musical and thematic elements of later Sonics with the familiar gameplay and graphics of the Genesis titles and weird, Newgrounds-style cutscene animations to make a highly developed and polished trilogy. The second such game, which you see here, has for some reason received the most attention from critics, but all three have been acclaimed. Here I stand in hope that its article will receive similar praise. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Crisco 1492 edit

  • Coulda sworn I already had for LakeFeperd, but done. Tezero (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If Sonic: Before the Sequel is notable, consider redlinking it.
  • I don't think it's likely to be. For some reason, there's coverage on After the Sequel and the trilogy as a whole, but little to none on Before the Sequel or Chrono Adventure. Probably has to do with After the Sequel piggybacking on Before's mild popularity while improving on it, and Chrono Adventure just being too weird. (It's a time-travel Metroidvania with lengthy cutscenes.) Tezero (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's kind of inconvenient that the "n.a." shows up by default since it doesn't give you the option to fill those in originally... Anyway, done. I think. Tezero (talk) 15:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider finding a way to work the links from #See also into the text, or at least giving a short reason why they are included (per MOS:SEEALSO).
  • One composer from Sonic 3 emailed one of the After the Sequel musicians. - And?
  • The source doesn't say what happened next. This actually came up at GAN; I wanted to say something like "it is not known what happened next", but even that pittance was deemed to be OR. Tezero (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think I could support this passing FAC with such an obvious question still hanging. I'll try and help find something. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If nothing ever came out of this, and if nothing even talks about the contents of the email (it could just be "good job!", after all), I would seriously consider eliminating this sentence. Although you could mention Sega's previous litigation as context (and to complete the paragraph) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I count seven references, excluding primary sources. Are you sure this is a comprehensive review of the literature on this subject?
  • I'll give a more detailed prose review once this is done.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:28, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is an unofficial work in the Sonic the Hedgehog series - This implies that the game is canon, which it decidedly is not. "Set in the Sonic the Hedgehog universe" or something, maybe?
  • Sega Genesis Sonic games - First, WP:SEAOFBLUE suggests separating those two links. Second, to differentiate between Sonic 1, the series, and the character, I'd change the link to "Sonic games"
  • with each zone divided into three acts followed by a boss fight with Doctor Eggman. - how exactly does the quote support this?
  • By listing the composer for each act. Or is this about Eggman being the boss? Tezero (talk) 15:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • zone, - I'd have expected this link in the gameplay section
  • Unlike many longtime Sonic fans, Daneluz remained supportive of the series through its "dark age" in the mid to late 2000s and enjoyed games such as Sonic Riders. - might want to discuss, just a little, how negative reception of those games has been, for people who don't follow VGs.
  • I listed the meager GameRankings scores Riders got for context; it might be straying too much from the focus (as well as OR) to list those of, say, '06, Shadow, Genesis, Black Knight, or those others with particularly poor reviews. Tezero (talk) 15:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm... what about as a footnote? Personally, I think a bit of context is necessary to get the point the sources are making across. Regular readers of the sources may have an idea of exactly how terribly recent Sonic games have been received, and thus the sources you have are not explicit, but our average readers probably don't know. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • What I've done is list the GameRankings scores of all Sonic games released during 2006, likely the critical nadir of his career, in a footnote. Tezero (talk) 16:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't think you've linked to the games proper in the article text (only in the lede). Consider doing so.
  • "Games proper"? I link to Sonic 2 and 3 in the body, specifically in Plot; what others should I? Tezero (talk) 15:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • OH. No, you were right; I hadn't linked to Sonic 1 in the body text. Just fixed that. And I'll look for an Eggman citation, though it seems obvious and I don't expect it will be difficult to find... Tezero (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • MaxieDaMan - And this is who, exactly?
  • Again, the lack of a CAD notice might require background for the average reader; why is this worth noting?
  • As of March 2014, the trilogy had been downloaded 120,000 times, as compared to the 640,000 copies of the official game Sonic Lost World (also released in 2013) sold by the same time. - you don't exactly state that this is a rare tour de force for an indie game, like you do in the lede — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, only question left is whether or not that email should actually be included. I mean, it goes nowhere and is only mentioned offhandedly in one source. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:24, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've merged a few of the paragraphs together after redacting that sentence. Tezero (talk) 01:37, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support assuming that no further RSes are found. Good read. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Prism edit

  • "the trilogy of Before the Sequel, After the Sequel, and third installment Sonic Chrono Adventure" — A bit ambiguous. (i.e.: The trilogy of Before the Sequel: After the Sequel and third installment Sonic Chrono Adventure)
  • How is it ambiguous? How would adding a colon in place of a comma make it any less so? Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The example inside the parentheses is how one could interpret the sentence (as if you were referring to After the Sequel and Sonic Chrono which form the trilogy of Before the Sequel). pedro | talk 17:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prism, I've reworded it a little, although I don't think it's confusing either way as a trilogy would not include two items. (Also, you used the word "support" in your last edit summary. I don't know whether you mean to say that you support this nomination, but if so, please state this outright in bold.) Tezero (talk) 18:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove also from "can also fly" (redundant)
  • Um... why? It isn't used earlier, and I think it helps keep it unambiguous that Tails' ability to fly does not come at the expense of some other ability. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it includes ones typical of the Sonic series" — awkward wording
  • Reworded to "typical Sonic power-ups". Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • My bad. That came from the merging of a few paragraphs and I didn't notice it earlier. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "more reserved" seems like NPOV
  • Well, his praise was less effusive. I'm not claiming one way or the other whether the game is good or whether he's a biased writer. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The average reader should be able to figure out that he was more reserved while referencing the music. Anyway, I'm not going to insist.
  • While refs aren't explicitly part of the FAC, we have to ensure that these articles are in top-notch condition. Can you insert the publishers for websites on their refs?
  • This isn't standard (only czar does it as far as I know), it's not required now (plenty of video game FAs pass without them), and I think it would set an onerous precedent if it became required. However, for information's sake:
  • Kotaku - Gawker Media
  • Red Bull - Red Bull
  • Game Rankings - CBS Interactive
  • NintendoLife - dx.net/Gamer Network
  • IndieGames - UBM Tech
  • Destructoid - independent
  • Per WP:VG/S — has "author reliability" been checked for Damien McFerran, considering he's an editor for NintendoLife?
  • He's the editorial director of NintendoLife and a couple of other sites and has also written for IGN UK and Eurogamer. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Could you ping me when you respond to those comments? Thank you, pedro | talk 11:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Prism: Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I now Support the article as I believe it fulfills all of the FA criteria (i.e. follows the MOS rules, is extremely comprehensive even though there wasn't a lot of coverage for this game, its prose is brilliant—all in all, an article developed by Tezero. Keep up the good work. pedro | talk 18:06, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Taylor Trescott

I have a video game FAC currently open, so I've decided to review some others to make things fair. Overall this article looks pretty good. I just have some minor niggles.

  • "1990s-inspired soundtrack" I think this should be changed. You're referring to Red Bull's comment, right? They aren't saying it's inspired, more that it reminds them of nineties music.
  • "the segue into the events of Sonic the Hedgehog 3." This doesn't seem like something the game itself would be able to cite.
  • Cited to a third-party source. Tezero (talk) 00:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One called RedHot Ride Zone, however, was based mainly on a level of the same name in Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest, while ideas for other levels came from the likes of Sonic Riders, locations in São Paulo, the concept of Sonic being high on sugar, and a Sonic-style song called "Combat Night Zone" by electronic artist MaxieDaMan." So, many, commas, could, you, rework, this?
  • "that fan made Sonic After The Sequel has" - no colon?
  • The original quote doesn't have one. Tezero (talk) 00:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why does every reference repeat LakeFeperd twice?
  • Because he's both the developer and de facto publisher. I've removed it, though. Tezero (talk) 00:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ping me once you've responded to these. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 23:50, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, Taylor Trescott! Come hither! Tezero (talk) 00:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, looks good. You have my support. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 00:41, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Prose review from JimmyBlackwing

Prose is solid overall. Just a few nitpicks.

  • "a 2013 video game" — Type of video game should be specified.
  • "Similar to its predecessor" —> "Like its predecessor" or "As with its predecessor".
  • "other games both inside and outside the series" —> "other games inside and outside the Sonic series".
  • "and was developed in" —> "and it was developed with".
  • "engine" — Needs a link.
  • "on June 15, 2013" — We already know the year of its release, and the full date may be found in the infobox, so just cut this.
  • "Unusually for fan games" — Unusually how? Is it a low or high number?
  • "the trilogy of Before the Sequel, After the Sequel, and a third installment called Sonic Chrono Adventure" —> "Before the Sequel, After the Sequel, and their successor Sonic Chrono Adventure".
  • "traditional style" — Since "traditional" doesn't add any new information, it can be cut without loss.
  • "it lets the player play as either" —> "it lets the player control either".
  • "left and right with the arrow keys and jump with the 'Z' key" — It isn't standard to provide this much control information, but I'm willing to be convinced. What's the rationale?
  • At the peer review, someone said it would have to be included or the article would fall into the damnable zone of "not enough coverage for FA". The implication, I believe, is that he would oppose on those grounds. Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd say it veers dangerously close to WP:GAMEGUIDE. It isn't a dealbreaker, though, so I'll let it slide. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with each zone divided" —> "each divided".
  • "somewhat like labyrinths" — Half-swallowed phrases like this don't mean much to the reader. I, for one, can't even guess as to what it means.
  • Half-swallowed? I don't understand. The zones have layouts that make ample use of the X and Y axes and that you have to think a bit about, rather than just being flat and brainless or whatever. Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess it's not that common of an expression. It means tentative. "Somewhat like labyrinths" second-guesses itself so much that the reader is left with very little. Based on your description here, perhaps the sentence could be rewritten, "These levels are designed for fast-paced gameplay along both the horizontal and vertical axes". JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eh, I think that'd be leaning too far into ideas not in the original source, so I've just scrapped it. It's not especially important anyway. Tezero (talk) 16:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "rings in levels" — All mentions of "levels" should be changed to "zones", or vice versa, after the zone concept is introduced.
  • Well, sometimes I utilize "level" rather than "zone" when "zone" appears nearby in the text, to keep it from getting repetitive. Any specific instances that are glaring? Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand the concern, but I don't think it's worth the loss in clarity. Once you've defined a jargon-y term like "zone", I find it's best to use it either every time or never again. For example, defining the term "research" in a RTS-related article, and then using it interchangeably with the more general "upgrade", just confuses the non-specialist. And, for what it's worth, clarity worries led me to avoid using synonyms for "level" in Robbing the Cradle, which turned out fine. I say pick one and stick with it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "incurs a game over screen" — Game over should be linked, and "incurs" is a very strange word for this. Perhaps "results in".
  • "On the other hand" —> Very informal turn of phrase for a Wikipedia page. Perhaps "Conversely".
  • "it includes" —> "these include".
  • "but also includes" —> "as well as".
  • "After the ending of Sonic the Hedgehog 2" — Canonically after the ending of Sonic the Hedgehog 2, or only in Daneluz's creation? Should be specified.
  • Well, he didn't create his own ending for Sonic 2, but this game isn't part of Sega's official canon for the series, so I don't know which of your options is correct. I also don't see why the situation is ambiguous, though. Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll try to be clearer. The article states that Sonic and Tails fly over an ocean after the end of Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Is this an after-credits sequence in Sega's game, or is it Daneluz's idea? If it's Daneluz's idea, then I recommend changing the sentence to something like, "Picking up after the ending of Sonic the Hedgehog 2, After the Sequel begins with Sonic and Tails flying over the sea in Tails' biplane, the Tornado." This way, you avoid tying the plot section canonically to Sega's work. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • First one. It's not a post-credits scene in Sonic 2; it's pre-credits, after the final boss. Tezero (talk) 16:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "helps himself to" — Somewhat informal. Perhaps "steals".
  • "its 'dark age' in the mid to late 2000s and enjoyed games such as Sonic Riders" — Appears to be OR, given the note at the end of this sentence. If it isn't in reference 3, cut it.
  • It is. The source refers to this period as the "dark age" and mentions Riders accordingly. Believe me, I side with Feperd over the general public here (well, not for Unleashed. I don't like Unleashed), but I do have to represent the sources fairly. Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very well. However, in that case, I don't understand the presence of the GameRankings scores. Reviews aren't objectively linked to game quality or popularity, so I don't see how they relate to the term "dark age". I'd recommend removing them, since they only serve to muddy the point. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Crisco 1492 above wanted them there as an illustration of the dark age. Tezero (talk) 06:58, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • " – rather than cynicism – " — This is redundant. Also, just for future reference, you have to pick one dash style and stick with it.
  • Done. And for the record, I don't know how those got there. I always just use the individual en-dash and em-dash characters. Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "game engine" — Link needed again.
  • "pre-tailored" — "tailored".
  • "The game's levels" — Which game? Two have just been mentioned.
  • "Sonic: After the Sequel" — You've called it "After the Sequel" until now, so I don't understand the change.
  • Eh, I felt it was best to start the paragraph with the full title, but whatever. Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Destructoid quote is far too long. Try to slice it up into smaller pieces, broken up by paraphrases.
  • "the trilogy" — What is "the trilogy"? The third game has only been mentioned in the lead, and there with no citation.
  • Hmm. I know at least one of the citations covers it, though I can't remember offhand; where do you think information about the third installment should go? Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I recommend adding it to the end of the final sentence of Development's opening paragraph, via a comma break. It's the only place where it would really fit. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "unusual for indie games" — Unusual in what way?

Good work scraping this thing together: you've pulled off a fairly strong article with next to no sources. I'll be more than willing to support once these issues are addressed. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:33, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

JimmyBlackwing, I've responded to them all. Tezero (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Made a few minor prose tweaks to the article and responded above. Just a few more things to hash out. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Alright. Haven't read in detail, but they look fair; I'll get to them tomorrow and then we should be good to go. Tezero (talk) 06:58, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
JimmyBlackwing Tezero (talk) 16:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. One final request: in the plot section, you need to define when After the Sequel starts. As someone, who's never played Sonic 2 or AtS, it's a mystery to me. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 18:17, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand. The time that's passed isn't specified; they were flying at the end of Sonic 2 and they're flying at the start of After the Sequel. It could be that they stopped to stretch and hit up the vending machine in between. Tezero (talk) 18:40, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See, that wasn't at all clear to me from the article text. Here's something along the lines of what it needs: "... the Tornado. After the Sequel picks up from this point." The wording could be changed in a dozen ways, but that's the general idea. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 18:47, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Tezero (talk) 18:58, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Great work. I still remember reviewing Lego Star Wars II way back in 2009; glad to see you're still putting out quality FACs. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - lead image needs an expanded FUR, particularly in terms of purpose of use. I would also suggest using the original source rather than the forum. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How about now, Nikkimaria? Tezero (talk) 00:17, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Better. I would prefer if it explicitly stated that it is used in the infobox. Nikkimaria (talk) 07:32, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Tezero (talk) 17:42, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank edit

  • As always, feel free to revert my copyediting.
  • I have a problem with only one sentence: "Ideas for other zones came from the likes of Sonic Riders, locations in São Paulo, the concept of Sonic being high on sugar, and a Sonic-style song called "Combat Night Zone" by electronic artist MaxieDaMan.": I don't know what the sentence is saying. What does it mean that an idea comes from a location in São Paulo? And what's a "location in São Paulo"? A neighborhood, a business, something nearby? In what way was a zone inspired by a song?
  • None of that's explained in the sources. LakeFeperd's a creative guy, I guess. Tezero (talk) 02:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the source doesn't succeed in communicating a coherent idea (as often happens), leave it out of the article. - Dank (push to talk) 02:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, the sources do give those helpful bits about his inspiration. They don't say how, but that often isn't the case. It's just that it seems odd to you and me for a game to be inspired by a city or a song, but it happens. Tezero (talk) 02:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I see you've included the source text in the refs, perfect. - Dank (push to talk) 02:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "approbation": disapproval, or intent to take legal action?
  • Disapproval. I believe intent to take legal action pretty much would be the cease-and-desist order mentioned. Tezero (talk) 02:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source Review from GamerPro64 edit

  • Setting this up to look over the sources used in this article. I'll get it all down real soon. GamerPro64 21:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I may have overlooked it even though I went through the reference at least six times but Reference 3c and d don't seem to have the information in the citation. 3d I can almost let slide since it can almost go without saying that Sonic Chrono Adventure takes place between Sonic 3 and 'Sonic & Knuckles. But I just can't find the mentioning of the addition of new items in the reference. Maybe I went past it so correct me if I'm wrong. GamerPro64 21:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, I guess I couldn't find it, either. I've actually just removed the citation, because the Kirby powerups mentioned right afterward are new ones. Tezero (talk) 21:22, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also for Citation 3, when it mentions 640,000 copies of Sonic Lost World being sold, it specifically mentions the Wii U version. Probably should add that part in. GamerPro64 21:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Citation 5, are you referencing the game itself? GamerPro64 22:32, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, it was for some details about the gameplay not covered in secondary sources or the game's text but that someone at the peer review insisted on including, with the implication that the article would be incomplete and he would oppose otherwise. I don't feel strongly either way. Tezero (talk) 23:34, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think that its a problem overall. I guess it can work. Sometimes playing a game can help with understanding it more. I think that the sources Pass now. GamerPro64 00:34, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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