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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Somerset County Cricket Club in 2009/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 17:36, 27 September 2012 [1].

Somerset County Cricket Club in 2009 edit

Somerset County Cricket Club in 2009 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Harrias talk 15:35, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From my previous nomination: "I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it comprehensively covers the topic, and provides a neutral and well-written analysis." I have gone through all the comments from the previous nominations, particularly those from Nev1 in the last nomination. The most significant change to the article in the addition of an aftermath section, but a number of other tweaks and changes have be made in response to the previous feedback. As always, I look forward to all your comments and suggestions. Harrias talk 15:35, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment – I reviewed this article at the last FAC and there haven't been that many changes aside from the aftermath section addition, so I don't have much to add to my prior comments that were addressed. The one sticking point in the new section for me is the financial paragraph, which is quite stubby at one paragraph. Is there anything else that can be added, or a better location for it where its shortness doesn't stick out so much? Giants2008 (Talk) 00:17, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not really sure where else it could viably move within the article. There is a little bit more information provided in the yearbook about the number of improvement the club were making which make breaking even a positive thing, I could add something about that to pad the paragraph out a little more if you think that could work. I'm trying to find more information on attendances for the year which would fit in there, but I haven't been able to find anything thus far. Harrias talk 14:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The "financial paragraph" in its entirety reads "Financially, Somerset broke-even in 2009, generating a gross turnover of £4.5 million, and increased their investment into the team by roughly 50% from 2005." First, the verb is "to break even", not "to break-even", so the hyphen needs removing. Secondly, what does "increased their investment into the team by roughly 50% from 2005" actually mean? That they paid their players more? That they brought in expensive new players? Or something else? At present the wording is too vague to be useful. Brianboulton (talk) 20:00, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've expanded the paragraph a bit more, and removed the bit about investment into the team, given that the source did not expand on the topic sufficiently for me to be able to answer the question, and thus I agree it is a bit too vague. Removed the hyphen from "broke even": I wasn't sure whether it took it or not, and based it upon out article Break-even (economics). Harrias talk 11:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Not directly related to this FAC, but any reason why the cricket season infobox links "wicket-keeping" but not "runs" or "wickets"?
  • Picky, but ref 1 doesn't actually say all of Kieswetter's catches were as wicket-keeper...
  • No. Can't find anything that does. I *know* they were, but citing it... Harrias talk 23:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They were captained " -> "Somerset were captained..." (or "was captained" depending on how many US readers you expect to have to negotiate this old chestnut with...)
  • "topped the batting tables" context, i.e. for Somerset or overall in English cricket?
  • Changed to "national batting tables" Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "had looked at times" bit speculative, even in hindsight, can we reword this more neutrally but give over the same message?
  • Changed slightly, how is it now? Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Our article on "Cricinfo" now calls it "ESPNcricinfo". In fact, you use the latter in your sources.
  • It would be really nice if you could get all your tables to meet WP:ACCESS per MOS:DTT for screen-readers.
  • Done. Though I'd appreciate if you could cast your expert eye over them? Harrias talk 23:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Justin Langer (Captain)" no need for capital C in my mind.
  • Not sure in the utility of linking both "medium-fast" and "medium pace" and "fast-medium" and "medium" all to "fast bowling" (I'm thinking non-experts here).
  • I get what you are saying, but I think some sort of link is needed. The fast bowling page is in general unreferenced and very OR-y. There is a litle in the glossary about fast and medium, but nothing about fast-medium and medium-fast. The best we've got is Fast bowling#Categorisation of fast bowling, but I think that is a very OR section (hence the tag addition) so I'm not comfortable linking there. Any ideas? Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not perhaps the remit of this FAC but is there a way you could split the fast bowling page into subsections that you could link these terms to? Or improve the page to remove the tag? Not that big a deal for me, just wondered how we could help the non-experts understand these subtleties... The Rambling Man (talk) 06:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • " total of 742/5 " does a non-expert know what this means?
  • "was only reached in " ->"was reached in only".
  • ", as was " -> "along with" to avoid repeating "as".
  • "only managed to play five" no need for "managed to" unless you qualify it I think.
  • I would consider linking some of the more crickety terms to the glossary we have, e.g. "collapsed", "innings", "a slow pitch", "required rate" etc.
  • Done on those occasions I have found them. Harrias talk 23:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't use bold in tables (or anywhere really) for emphasis per WP:BADEMPHASIS.
  • Where are the "Adjustments" referenced in the table key?
  • To CricketArchive, the same place as the rest of the table. Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Table heading, why is Highest Score not just Highest score?
  • Batting average (and other similar "shared" phrases) would benefit from being hash-linked to the appropriate section in the article.
  • Done batting average, not come across any others yet. Harrias talk 23:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any article (or section of article) for how points are awarded in a County Championship game?
  • Expand ECB before using the abbreviation.
  • "Team marked † were eliminated from the competition." Teams. (See all tables)
  • "England and Wales Cricket Board " you previously just referred to this as ECB (but see my earlier comment).
  • In Aftermath section, "England Lions" is a dab link.
  • Weird, I swear I fixed that before.. no matter, done now. Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for the 2010 season" suitable article to link to?

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:12, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments mostly of the nitpicking variety.
    • I noticed a few instances of "noun plus -ing" e.g. the imbalance in favour of the batsmen resulting in all but one match at the ground being drawn.
  • I'm a repeat offender with these. I'm removed that one (I think: I barely changed it), I'll scour through for any more, but if they jump out, please mention them! Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Despite a season in which Marcus Trescothick was described by David Foot as "imperiously assured", Somerset failed to win enough matches to pose a real challenge in the 2009 County Championship. These two things don't seem that closely connected, one man does not win a cricket championship.
    • This placed the majority of the bowling burden upon Charl Willoughby Forgive my being over-literal, but by definition he could only take a maximum of 50% of the burden. "an increased burden" or "majority of the wicket-taking burden" perhaps?
  • Good point. Changed to latter suggestion. Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Could do with mentioning somewhere early on that County Championship matches are played over four days.
    • Not sure about "aftermath" as a section title due to the connotations of ill-effects. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:38, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can understand your point, but I'm at something of a loss as to an alternative: the best I can come up with is the very unsnappy "After the season": any improvement? Harrias talk 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem there is that "Postseason" (generally without the hyphen) has a very specific meaning in North American sport, and I'm worried it might be confusing or misleading for those readers? Harrias talk 21:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Reaction"? Though that's not brilliant either. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: It's always tricky to make this sort of article accessible to the general reader without dumbing down too much. I think the balance is just about right. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:23, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Their performance in the Twenty20 Cup saw them qualify for the Champions League Twenty20.": Maybe "Through their performance in the Twenty20 Cup, the team qualified for the Champions League Twenty20"
  • "They enjoyed a successful season…": POV? By what standard were they successful? More precision here, I think.
  • "but the batting-friendly pitch at their home ground": Maybe a little jargony for the lead?
  • "saw the county finish with too many draws to claim their first Championship title": I never like "saw". Maybe "meant that"?
  • "Somerset qualified for the quarter-finals as one of the best third-placed teams": The 3rd place rule may be too much for the lead; possibly just say that they qualified.
  • Removed the bit about qualifying for the quarter-finals altogether and simply put that the were losing finalists. Harrias talk 11:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "accruing almost 3,000 runs in all competitions in 2009…": Anything wrong with "scoring"?
  • I think I was avoiding repetition, but removed the other case! Changed as suggested. Harrias talk 11:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which saw him named": A third "saw" in the lead.
  • Removed, and got rid of all the other example through the article too. Harrias talk 11:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe some links for batting positions in the background section?
  • "Despite a season in which Marcus Trescothick was described by David Foot as "imperiously assured",[3] Somerset failed to win enough matches to pose a real challenge in the 2009 County Championship.": Something not quite right with the structure here. Maybe "Although Marcus Trescothick had a season which David Foot described as…"
  • "flat pitch": jargon here. You can just hear people asking "aren't all pitches flat?"
  • "and saw him named as both PCA Player of the Year and the PCA's Most Valuable Player of the Year for 2009": Saw…
  • As above, changed all examples of "saw" in the article. Harrias talk 11:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "all scored centuries to rescue a draw": Rescue seems a bit journalese.
  • "a position they would not drop below for the remainder of the season": Maybe "and they did not drop below this position for the remainder of the season".
  • Possibly, too much weight is given to the T20 semi-final and final, in the overall context of the season.
  • Strategy and tactics are covered in T20, but not in the other competitions. Is there anything similar available?
  • Not really. There are little bits and pieces, but really I'd have to stretch little quotes out to an OR-ish extent to get anything decent. Harrias talk 11:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a tricky one. If the detail is not available in other forms of cricket, fair enough. But does that mean that we should include the T20 detail, just because it exists? I think the risk here is too much weight on T20 in the overall context of the season. Not too sure on this one. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can see your point here. The T20 section is shorter than the Championship, but clearly longer than the FPT or the Pro40. But I think that possibly reflects the prominence that Twenty20 cricket is given now. It gets the largest crowds, and significant coverage in the press, more so than 40 and 50-over cricket typically. Also, the fact that Somerset were finalists and qualified for the Champions League Twenty20 as a result makes it important to the season. That said, I do agree that there is probably a little too much detail on the semi-final and final! Harrias talk 10:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Somerset bowled strongly in the competition": A bit POV, given the source.
  • "Wicket-keeper Carl Gazzard": Two links in succession make it look like one long pipe; any way to improve this?
  • Are there any official judgements on the season, such as a coach's report in the yearbook?
  • I quite like the idea of the last section being called "reaction" rather than "aftermath".
  • I second Brian's comments about the financial section being a little vague.
  • I've expanded this a bit more now, how is it? Harrias talk 11:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sarastro1 (talk) 10:23, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning support: Just about there I think. There are one or two things still to address which I have left unstruck. And it may be worth adding a few more links: for example, fast bowler, opening partnership. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: I'm happy to support now; anything left unstruck is not a huge issue and does not affect my support. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: I reviewed (and supported) a previous nomination of this; I'll read through again (might take me to the end of the weekend) and hope to be able to support again. Meanwhile, I'll add comments here as I have time.

  • "He was aided by seam bowlers Alfonso Thomas and David Stiff, who returned to the first-class game for the first time since 2006": this sentence structure doesn't make it clear whether it's just Stiff, or both Stiff and Thomas, who returned to the first-class game for the first time since 2006. Assuming it's just Stiff, I'd suggest reversing the order of names so that the descriptive clause directly follows his name but precedes Stiff: "... seam bowlers David Stiff, who ... , and Alfonso Thomas".

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Switched to support above; couldn't find anything else to fix. Please do tweak the sentence I mention above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorted. Had to reorder the subsequent sentence too to avoid close repitition. Harrias talk 19:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning Support: I don't have time to make a detailed prose check but in the main it seems OK; maybe Mike, above, will find a few glitches. What is truly excellent is the presentation of the statistical information. No stone left unturned, and beautifully done. Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have also switched to support. Brianboulton (talk) 18:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – My only concern was related to the financial paragraph, which has been expanded and otherwise improved since I was first here. I went and cleaned up a couple of things there, and I'm satisfied that the rest of the article is up to FA standards. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:10, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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