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Paul Tibbets

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 07:24, 16 June 2014 [1].


Paul Tibbets (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Reedmalloy (talk) and Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an US Air Force general. He held the distinction of leading the attack on Hiroshima. His article holds the distinction of being the oldest article to appear on DYK. Created in 2003 (while the subject was still alive), it ran on the front page as DYK ten years later in September 2013. I hope it can run as TFA on the subject's 100th birthday in 2015. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 21:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-edit and comments from AmericanLemming

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Support promotion on the basis of prose and comprehensiveness. After 89 comments and 40 edits of my own, I think the prose meets the FA standards. Furthermore, my status as a non-expert on the subject matter has enabled me to point out where further explanation is needed for the average reader. I still think Hawkeye7 could go a little further in that regard, but the most egregious examples have been taken care of. Sometimes less is more, I suppose. In summary, a well-written article. I enjoyed reading it. AmericanLemming (talk) 20:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as I have a current FAC open, I really ought to review at least one other FAC. Since I'm a history buff, I chose this one. I'll review for prose, comprehensiveness, and maybe sourcing/images. We'll see. Feel free to revert any of my copy-edits; I'll leave any comments below. AmericanLemming (talk) 03:32, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

  • The article is mainly about his World War II military career. While I understand that emphasis, I think a short section on his personal life, marriage, and children, say a paragraph or two, would be warranted. For example, I infer that he divorced/was widowed and then remarried, but the article does not explicitly say that.
    • Yes, it does. Early military career: he met Lucy Wingate. The two were married in a Catholic seminary in Holy Trinity, Alabama on June 19, 1938. Post-war military career: His marriage to his first wife, Lucy Wingate, ended in divorce in 1955. His second wife was a French woman named Andrea Quattrehomme, whom he met during his posting there. Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:35, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a "Summary of Service" section at the end (similar to that found in the Omar Bradley article) would be helpful for non-experts like me.
  • Given that he's best known for piloting the Enola Gay as it dropped Little Boy on Hiroshima, I think a paragraph or two on his personal views on the bombing and the impact the bombing has had on his legacy (for better and for worse) would be warranted.

Infobox

  • The 308th Bombardment Group and the 6th Air Division both appear in the infobox but not in the lead. How about including a short sentence on each of them in the last paragraph of the lead?
  • I see he won his fair share of medals. Could we include something about him being highly decorated somewhere in the lead?

Lead

  • “Paul Warfield Tibbets, Jr. (February 23, 1915 – November 1, 2007) was a brigadier general” When did he become a brigadier general? The lead doesn’t say.
    • The article says: he was promoted to brigadier general in 1959. I don't track his ranks in the lead. But we always mention someone's highest rank in the first sentence. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:27, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wasn’t the US Air Force technically the US Army Air Force from 1941 to 1947?
  • “Tibbets enlisted in the army in 1937 and qualified as a pilot in 1938.” This goes back to my comment above: people who don’t know about the US Army Air Force are going to be slightly confused.
  • “In February 1942, he became commanding officer” I’m not sure if this is my personal preference or not, but wouldn’t “the commanding officer” be better here?
  • “of the 340th Bombardment Squadron, 97th Bombardment Group” I think “of the 97th Bombardment Group” or “part of the 97th Bombardment Group” would be clearer.
  • “Eighth Air Force, and Tibbets became deputy group commander” Of the Eighth Air Force, I presume?
  • “After flying 43 combat missions, he became the assistant for bomber operations on the staff of the Twelfth Air Force.” What was his rank at the time?
  • “After the war, he participated in Operation Crossroads,” Could we give a brief description of what Operation Crossroads was for the benefit of the non-expert?

Early life

  • “In 1927, when he was 12 years old, he performed his first flight,” Unsupervised? That is, no one else was in the plane with him?
  • “dropping candy bars to the crowd of people” on the crowd of people?
  • Note 2 has a Harvard citation error.
  • “Later he attended the University of Florida in Gainesville,[1] and was an initiated member of the Epsilon Zeta Chapter of Sigma Nu fraternity in 1934.[3]” Do we know why he attended the University of Florida?
  • “and was an initiated member of the Epsilon Zeta Chapter of Sigma Nu fraternity in 1934” Don’t you mean “became an initiated member in 1934”. Otherwise it makes it sound like he was only a member in 1934 and ceased to be afterwards.
  • “During that time, Tibbets was taking private flying lessons.” With whom/with what company?
    • Private lessons. Added: "at Miami's Opa-locka Airport with Rusty Heard, who later became a captain at Eastern Airlines."
  • “After his undergraduate work, Tibbets had planned on becoming an abdominal surgeon.” First, what was he majoring in, and second, why did he want to become an abdominal surgeon?
    • I'm not sure what his major was; Tibbets says he was studying "pre-med". I'm uncertain as to whether he needed to select a major before he decided to leave. It was really his father who wanted him to become a doctor. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:27, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “He attended the University of Cincinnati for a year and a half” Do we know why he switched colleges?

That's all for now. I've started listing comments for the other sections in a Word document on my computer, but they aren't as well fleshed out, and I think I've given you plenty enough to work with. AmericanLemming (talk) 05:26, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Early military career

  • This comment is about the last sentence of the previous section. Do we know why he changed his mind and enlisted? Was it just because he liked flying so much?
    • Tibbets (p. 36) gives three reasons:
      1. He saw physicians dying of overwork and felt that "the demands of the profession were excessive".
      2. Doctors advised him "that the country was drifting towards socialised medicine"
      3. That he was increasingly infatuated with flying, which he thinks was probably the most important reason.
    • I do not normally ascribed motivations to people, as they are not knowable, even to the people themselves. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “received his pilot rating in 1938” What was his rating?
  • “Tibbets was assigned to the 16th Observation Squadron and based at Lawson Field, Georgia” Was the 16th Observation Squadron based at Lawson Field or just Tibbets?
  • “with a flight supporting the Infantry School at Fort Benning” This phrase doesn’t make any sense to me. What exactly does it mean?
    • In military parlance, we talk about "air support", "artillery support" etc. JP 1-02 defines "support" as "the action of a force that aids, protects, complements, or sustains another force in accordance with a directive requiring such action." Hawkeye7 (talk)
  • “where he met Lucy Wingate” Do we know anything about the circumstances of their meeting? That is, what was she doing at Fort Brenning? Was she from Columbus, Georgia?
    • She was working as a clerk at a department store in Columbus. (Added this) They met a a picnic double-date with Billy Beasley, as fellow bachelor. Hawkeye7 (talk)!
  • “While stationed at Fort Benning, Tibbets was promoted to first lieutenant” This goes back to my comment above. Was Tibbets based at Lawson Field or Fort Brenning? Both, maybe?
  • " In December 1941, he received orders to join the 29th Bombardment Group at MacDill Field, Florida" It sounds like his joining the 29th Bombardment Group was delayed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Do we know when he was supposed to join the 29th Bombardment Group?
  • “forming an anti-submarine patrol at Pope Army Airfield, North Carolina, with 21 B-18 Bolo light bombers.” Do you mean that he led the patrol? I’m a little confused.
    • Yes. When a new unit is formed, the field officers are normally selected, but then sent to schools. A group of trained officers and NCOs from other units, known as the cadre, converges on the unit's station, and start receiving the equipment. The field officers arrive, and then the rest of the unit, from training centers and schools. Unit training then commences. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, about them being light bombers, the B-18 Bolo article says that they were medium bombers. Which one is it? AmericanLemming (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

War against Germany

  • The image in this section is out of place. It would fit much better towards the bottom of the “War against Japan” section.
  • I think it would be worth mentioning the basics of the British/American bombing campaign in Europe somewhere: the British bombed at night, the Americans during the day with fighter escorts. We want to assume that our readers are intelligent but not necessarily familiar with the subject matter.
  • “It had been hastily assembled to meet demands for an early deployment,” Who was demanding the early deployment? The British, I assume?
  • “The group commander, Lieutenant Colonel Cornelius W. Cousland, was replaced” Any reason as to why?
    • According to Tibbets, the group spent their time drinking and partying instead of training. In the movie, Gregory Peck arrives to find only Major Tibbets on duty. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “Although a bombing failure resulting in numerous civilian casualties” If they hit what they were trying to hit, how does that make the mission a failure? Sounds like “The mission achieved its main objective against stubborn opposition but also resulted in numerous civilian casualties” would be more accurate.
  • “the mission was hailed an overall success because it reached its target against stubborn opposition.” By stubborn opposition, are we talking mainly flak or enemy fighters?
  • “was replaced by Colonel Frank A. Armstrong, Jr., who appointed Tibbets as his deputy.” Any reason why Armstrong chose Tibbets to be his deputy?
  • “a shallow penetration raid against a marshalling yard in Rouen in Occupied France, with Armstrong as his co-pilot” If Armstrong was his superior, then why was Tibbets the pilot and Armstrong the co-pilot?
  • “In the lead up to Operation Torch” Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s “lead up” when it’s a verb and “lead-up” when it’s a noun, like it is here.
  • “Tibbets flew Major General Mark W. Clark to Gibraltar” From the UK, I assume?
  • “A few weeks later Tibbets flew the Supreme Allied Commander, Lieutenant General Dwight D. Eisenhower, there” There has got to be a better way to word this sentence.
  • “After Tibbets had flown 25 combat missions against targets in France” So let me get this straight. He flew 25 missions in France and 18 in North Africa?
  • “the 97th Bomb Group was transferred to North Africa” Why was it transferred? Was it also transferred from the Eight Air Force to the Twelfth Air Force?
  • “In January 1943, Tibbets, who had now flown 43 combat missions,[18] was assigned as the assistant for bomber operations to Colonel Lauris Norstad” Do we know why he was assigned to this new position?
  • “Tibbets did not get along well with Norstad, or with Doolittle's chief of staff, Brigadier General Hoyt Vandenberg.” Do we know why he didn’t get along with them?
    • According to Tibbets, Norstad was a careerist, a coward, and an incompetent. He didn't like Hoyt Vandenberg much either. However both eventually achieved four-star rank. I have Norstad's biography here, but it doesn't mention Tibbets. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

AmericanLemming (talk) 07:20, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

War against Japan

  • This comment is about the previous section: “Three weeks later he was named the commanding officer of the 340th Bombardment Squadron of the 97th Bombardment Group, equipped with the B-17D” I’m assuming the B-17D is the fourth variant of the B-17, right?
  • “Chief of United States Army Air Forces” Was that Arnold’s official title? If not, “Chief” should be lowercase.
  • “the aircraft was 7,000 pounds (3,200 kg) lighter, and its performance was much improved.” How so? Did it fly faster, handle better, etc?
  • “he discovered that the B-29 had a shorter turning radius than the P-47, and could avoid it by turning away.” You seem to be implying that the B-29 was faster than the P-47. Otherwise, what good does faster turning do you?
    • If the B-29 has a turning circle of radius r and speed v, and the P-47 has radius r' and speed v', the the B-29 will complete its semicircle in πr/v and the P-47 in πr'/v'. So the B-29 will get away if r/r' < v/v'. Where this becomes really useful is later on, where the tight turn helps the B-29 escape from an atomic explosion. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:27, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “Tibbets taught two Women Airforce Service Pilots, Dora Dougherty and Dorothea (Didi) Moorman, to fly the B-29 as demonstration pilots.” I’m assuming he taught a lot of male pilots as well? And when you say “demonstration pilots”, you mean that they then showed male pilots how to fly the B-29 as well?
  • “Commander Norman F. Ramsey, Jr.” I don’t think the “Commander” link is to the right article; Ramsey was a physicist, not a naval officer.
  • “although it put a strain on his own marriage” Do we know why?
    • Tibbets felt that it was because he had to frequently leave, and could not confide in Lucy about what he was doing. I thought it was because she was stuck in a hell hole in the middle of nowhere with two creaming kids. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:27, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “A rigorous candidate selection process was used to recruit personnel, reportedly with an 80% "washout" rate. Not until May 1945 did the 509th Composite Group reach full strength.” Were they recruiting personnel for the 509th Composite Group or the 1st Ordnance Squadron?
  • “The 320th Troop Carrier Squadron kept its base of operations at Wendover.” What’s this unit’s relationship to the 509th? How long had the 320th been at Wendover?
  • “On May 6 the support elements sailed on the SS Cape Victory for the Marianas, while group materiel was shipped on the SS Emile Berliner” What does “SS” stand for in this case?
  • “Project Alberta's "Destination Team" also sent most of its members to Tinian to supervise the assembly, loading, and dropping of the bombs under the administrative title of 1st Technical Services Detachment, Miscellaneous War Department Group.” This confuses me. The article on Project Alberta states that it consisted of 52 members, and this article states that 51 of them went to Tinian. How about “all but one”?
  • “Enola Gay was personally selected by him while it was still on the assembly line.” When and where did this selecting take place?
  • “The regularly assigned aircraft commander, Robert A. Lewis” Assigned to what? To the Enola Gay? What made it “his” airplane and not Tibbets’?
  • “Robert A. Lewis, was unhappy to be displaced by Tibbets for this important mission,” Why was he displaced? Who made that decision?
  • Since Lewis was the copilot and still flew on the mission, I think that’s worth mentioning.
  • “became furious when he arrived at the aircraft on the morning of August 6 to see it painted with the now-famous nose art.” What didn’t he like about it?
  • “At 02:45 the next day…at 08:15 local time.” First, what do you think about using 12-hour time here? 12-hour time is easier for the average reader to understand, but 24-time is more appropriate given the military context. Second, are we talking Tinian local time or Hiroshima local time? Or are they in the same time zone?
  • “A-bomb” This abbreviation seems unnecessarily informal here.

Aftermath

  • “He became a celebrity, with pictures and interviews of his wife and children in the major American newspapers.” This is the only place in the article that mentions the children he had with Lucy. We should at least list their names and date or year of birth, even if it’s just in a footnote.
    • No, it mentions them later. Added their names to the article earlier. I know their dates of birth, but am not including them per WP:BLP, as they are not notable. Paul IV, however, is notable. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:18, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “There were, however, no parades or testimonial dinners for him or any of the other Enola Gay crewmen” Any reason why?
  • “although Tibbets later received an invitation from President Harry S. Truman to visit the White House” Did he accept?
    • Yes.

      Tibbets did receive one invitation to the White House right after the war. President Truman was his host.
      "We met in an irregular-shaped room," Tibbets said. "I suppose it was the Oval Office. It was short and quick. He offered me some coffee."
      As they chatted, Truman asked the pilot if anyone was giving him a hard time-saying unpleasant things to him because of the bomb and the hundreds of thousands of deaths it caused.
      I said, "Oh, once in a while."
      Truman said, "You tell them that if they have anything to say, they should call me. I'm the one who sent you."

  • “The 509th Composite Group was not awarded an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award until 1999.” Again, any reason why? National security or some such concern?
  • “Tibbets was interviewed extensively by Mike Harden of the Columbus Dispatch,” Did Harden interview him in 1975 too, or did someone else do that?
  • Also, Tibbets never lived in Columbus, Ohio, so why would he let them interview him? Was Harden a personal friend or something of the sort?
    • No, he lived in Columbus, Ohio,from when he became head of Executive Jet Aviation in 1976 until his death in 2007. See the Later life section. I think he became a local celebrity. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:18, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

AmericanLemming (talk) 07:10, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Post-war military career

  • This is a general comment about this whole section. I understand that you can’t really add that much more detail without giving undue weight to the less important aspects of his military career, but why did he move around so much? Is it usual for officers to have so many different postings and positions?
  • “but he and his Enola Gay crew were not chosen to drop another atomic bomb” Any reason why?
  • “and also became the first commander of the 509th Bombardment Wing, the successor to the 509th Composite Group.” When did the 509th Composite Group become the 509th Bombardment Wing?
    • It didn't. The 509th Bomb Wing was formed on 17 November 1947 as part of a new form of organisation in which each wing contained a combat group, an airdrome group, a maintenance and supply group and a station medical group. It incorporated the 509th Bomb Group as its combat group. In 1952 it was decided to abolish the combat groups, with their squadrons coming directly under the wings, and the 509th Bomb Group was inactivated on 16 June 1952. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “Tibbets attended the Air Command and Staff School at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama.”
  • “he was posted to the Directorate of Requirements at Air Force Headquarters” What was his exact role? Director, deputy director, advisor, attaché, etc.
  • Also, where’s the Air Force Headquarters?
  • “Directorate of Requirements at Air Force Headquarters” Could you give a brief description of this department? The name doesn’t tell me too much about it.
  • “When the director, Brigadier General Thomas S. Power,” Was Power the director of the Air Force headquarters or just the Directorate of Requirements?
  • “who appointed Tibbets as director of the Strategic Air Division.” What’s the Strategic Air Division’s relationship to the Strategic Air Command?
  • “Tibbets returned to Maxwell Air Force Base, where he attended the Air War College.” So the Air Command and Staff School and the Air War College are both located at Maxwell. What’s the difference between them? Also, I suppose he graduated from there, too?
    • The Air Command and Staff School is a course for majors that teaches them how to become senior staff officers; the Air War College is for colonels and teaches how to be a general officer. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:12, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “He then became Director of War Plans“ What exactly did that position entail?
  • “His marriage to his first wife, Lucy Wingate, ended in divorce in 1955” I think a brief explanation of why they got divorced would be warranted here.
  • “His second wife was a French woman named Andrea Quattrehomme, whom he met during his posting there.” What were the circumstances of their meeting?
  • “This was followed by another tour of duty at the Pentagon as director of Management Analysis.” When was his first tour of duty at the Pentagon?
  • “He retired from the United States Air Force (USAF) on August 31, 1966.” The National Aviation Hall of Fame biography says August 31, 1966, but the United States Air Force biography says September 1, 1966. Which one is it?

Later life and death

  • “He retired from the company in 1970 and returned to Miami, Florida.” What was he doing for four years? And why did he retire in the first place?
    • His next Air Force posting was to be the head of the Department of Defense Transportation. He didn't like the assignment and filed for retirement instead. Over the next years he was in chage of the company's operations in Europe. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:12, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • “after Tibbets re-enacted the bombing in a restored B-29 at an air show in Texas, complete with mushroom cloud.” How do you get a mushroom cloud without a real atomic bomb?
  • “which attempted to present the bombing in context with the destruction it caused, as a "damn big insult” Did he consider it “a damm big insult” to himself, his Enola Gay crew, or the whole 509th Composite Group, etc.?
  • “He was survived by his wife Andrea and three sons, Paul III, Gene and James.” You’re correct that the article does name the three sons he had with Lucy. However, the current wording here implies that he had these three sons with Andrea, not Lucy, hence my earlier confusion.
  • Also, he didn’t have any children with Andrea? That might be a fact worth mentioning.
  • Is his 1996 introduction to the National Aviation Hall of Fame notable enough to be included in this section?

AmericanLemming (talk) 05:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment from May 2 In the "Later life and death" section it says "He had requested that his body be cremated and his ashes scattered over the English Channel." That makes it sound like that's what he wanted, but it doesn't tell the reader whether or not it actually happened. For maximum clarity, you should perhaps change it to "In accordance with his wishes, his body was created..." AmericanLemming (talk) 02:20, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It could also mean that the editors have an abundance of sources attesting to his 2005 wish, but could not locate one attesting that it actually happened. Happily, I found one, so I have changed the article accordingly. (I became very cautious about such thing while writing about this guy, who have a grave at Arlington National Cemetery, but he isn't in it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:58, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing my comment. I am satisfied with the sentence now. AmericanLemming (talk) 03:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Prose review from Crisco

  • I know it's kinda silly to be asking this, but can we reduce the number of "bomb" words in the lede? I count 14.
  • There's a considerable number of redirects in the prose
  • Tibbets recalled that the city was covered with a tall mushroom cloud when the bomb was dropped. - might be read as the cloud already being there when the bomb was dropped, and not as a result of the bomb
  • The section #War against Japan could probably be retitled
  • When the head of the directorate, Brigadier General Thomas S. Power, was posted to London as air attaché, he was replaced by Brigadier General Carl Brandt, who appointed Tibbets as director of its Strategic Air Division, which was responsible for drawing up requirements for future bombers. - so many clauses... could this be split?
  • his first wife Lucy. - you didn't mention the new marriage yet, so this is jolting~~
  • The whole "Film" paragraph could probably work a bit further south... it's rather jarring to jump from the narrative to his portrayal in fiction to the narrative
    Okay, I have moved it down. Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • where he had spent part of his childhood. - is this significant?
    Quick response to this point. I added that phrase because I thought it might help explain why he moved to Miami. Yes, I know that it's mentioned in the "Early life" section, but I'd already forgotten it by the end of the article, and most readers don't read the entire article anyway. AmericanLemming (talk) 02:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    We like to help out the people who don't read the article whenever we can.   Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • He later left Miami to return to Executive Jet Aviation, having sold his Miami home in 1974. - when?
    I've expanded on this a bit. Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 393d Bomb Squadron was one of the two operational squadrons that had formed part of the 509th Composite Group when Tibbets commanded it. Colonel Paul W. Tibbets IV, his grandson and a 1989 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, commanded the 393d Bomb Squadron, flying the B-2 Spirit at Whiteman AFB, Missouri, from 2005 to 2007. - doesn't really work as a stand-alone paragraph. A footnote, maybe — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Expanded that too. Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    In fact I've now created an entire article on Paul W. Tibbets IV. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:07, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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