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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paul S. Walsh/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Paul S. Walsh

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Paul S. Walsh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Farrtj (talk) 10:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe I have taken it as far as I can. It has achieved Good Article status and I believe it to be ready for the next step in its history. It is problematic that a public domain photo of the subject does not yet exist, but I believe that if the article is promoted to FA status, this will improve the article's visibility, and improve its chances of getting that photo. Farrtj (talk) 10:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural discussion
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Delegate note -- Farrtj, per FAC instructions, you're only allowed one solo FAC nomination at a time, so either this one will have to be removed or the other one archived. I'm prepared to have you choose but note that the other one, open a month with no support for promotion, will likely be archived shortly anyway. In either case, pls take note of the FAC instructions -- this isn't the first time you've nominated out of process. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Per this exchange, this nom will remain open; the other will be archived. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:52, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Farrtj: (1) Have you been able to find an image that would comport with Fair use or WP:NFC and WP:NFCC? (2) Have you contacted Diageo's public relations office, the company's HQ number in London is: +44 (0)20 8978 6000, if you're in the US, you can reach their Intellectual Property/Copyright officer, Evan Gourvitz (Counsel Litigation/Intellectual Property) at 1.201.229.4264 or copyright@diageo.com, or by mail Diageo North America, Inc., 801 Main Avenue, Norwalk, CT 06851. Perhaps they will provide you permission to use an image from their press pack, or other public relations materials. It would be hard to support this nomination without an image per the WP:FACR.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I emailed their press office, asking for permission to use the Paul Walsh image they have up on their website, but I got no answer.Farrtj (talk) 17:25, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I rang the UK PR office and left a message on their answer machine. If they don't get back to me I'll ring them tomorrow. Would I need permission in writing (ie an email)? Farrtj (talk) 17:31, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think if you get permission by mail or email you have to forward a copy of it, but I've never had to do that.--ColonelHenry (talk) 20:00, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You'd have to forward it to "permissions-en@wikimedia.org" or "permissions-commons@wikimedia.org" (depending where you upload the image), see WP:OTRS and Commons:OTRS for more info - it's not exactly a straightforward process especially for first users of the system, so i suggest to read through the info before using it. Also make sure, the permission is completely free for all purposes and is sent from a recognizable mail adress (no anon google mail account or similar). There are standard mails available as example, if you have questions to the exact permission text. GermanJoe (talk) 08:20, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose sorry. The first thing one looks for in an article of this kind is overly praise-worthy claims that aren't supported by the sources. The first one I went to was such a case. For "Since 2007 Walsh has frequently been named as one of Britain's most admired businessmen.", this source is invoked. Other little parts of the article, like the social and competitive child or the populist approach to business bit, don't sit well either and don't use particularly good sources. Sorry, it's just not at FA standard in my view, which is not much of a criticism as these articles are quite hard to get to this level --Mkativerata (talk) 21:14, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Management Today is a respectable magazine source in the UK. But I've taken on board your criticisms and removed the offending sections.Farrtj (talk) 22:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Just two nitpicks, otherwise a well-researched and well-written article.

  • "He restructured Pillsbury, which he identified as poorly integrated, with the various divisions of the company, that he dubbed "fiefdoms", granted too much freedom." - confusing sentence: Probably replace commas with n-dashes or m-dashes, eg "He restructured Pillsbury – which he identified as poorly integrated – with the various divisions of the company – that he dubbed "fiefdoms" – granted too much freedom."
doneFarrtj (talk) 10:38, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The ODNB prefers "per cent".Farrtj (talk) 20:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ceranthor's Comments
  • He streamlined Diageo and his most notable decision was the acquisition of the Seagram drinks company. - Don't see how these two are connected. Could be explained better.
Done.Farrtj (talk) 20:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • Walsh claims to have inherited his work ethic from his father, his organisational skills from his mother, and his confidence from both parents - No need to link work ethic
Done.Farrtj (talk) 20:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • He did not enjoy accounting, but reasoned that the skill would provide a good gateway into business, which was where he wanted to be.[14] - No need for "which was where he wanted to be."
Done.Farrtj (talk) 20:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Career
  • In 1987, Walsh moved to New York - no need to link NY, I think it's famous enough :)
Done.Farrtj (talk) 20:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Saison sold the chain in 1998 for $2.8 billion, having added a further 87 hotels.[22] - "Added" is awfully vague. Were any acquired? Were they all built?
I don't know but I don't think the details are really relevant to Paul Walsh.Farrtj (talk) 20:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • He restructured Pillsbury – which he identified as poorly integrated – with the various divisions of the company – that he dubbed "fiefdoms" – granted too much freedom.[2 - I think only one set of emdashes should be used in a sentence. Currently this is incredibly hard to follow without reading it three times.
Restructured.Farrtj (talk) 11:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is "A$11 billion"?
Hotlinked to Australian dollar now.Farrtj (talk) 09:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Walsh said "fools and money can be easily parted", identifying the wine market as a bubble, a perception vindicated by 2011.[37] - what does this last part mean?
I've edited this now.Farrtj (talk) 11:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • he was a non-executive director of Control Data Corporation, followed by its successor company, Ceridian until 2007. - no need for the commas
Done.Farrtj (talk) 11:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personal life
  • He spends around half of his time in various foreign countries where Diageo is present.[11] - "where Diageo is present" is awkward. Better as "in various foreign countries on business" or "... for business"
Done.Farrtj (talk) 11:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Walsh met Manchester-born Nicolette (Nikki) - Surely her maiden name is available?
It isn't. I've looked.Farrtj (talk) 20:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • which ranks among the largest payouts in British history.[8] - Surely this refers to alimony? It's unclear from the too-concise description.
No it doesn't.Farrtj (talk) 11:44, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


In general, I don't think this is quite ready yet. Too much reliance on quotes and a lack of attention to detail in certain sections makes me wonder if this article is fully comprehensive. It seems well-written so far. ceranthor 19:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited the article with reference to your comments. Feel free to tell me what you think.Farrtj (talk) 11:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Have you consulted all the available resources? A lot of yours happen to be online, though I do agree that details on his personal life seem sketchy. Just want to confirm that you have exhausted everything out there. ceranthor 12:58, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I have. There are no books about him. Farrtj (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, then I will post some more prose comments sometime during the week. ceranthor 17:31, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ceranthor Second Round
  • The image of ice cream is decorative, and does not contribute anything meaningful to the article.
removed.Farrtj (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The concept of "core" businesses needs to be fully explained; it's very hazy in the article.
dealt with.Farrtj (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Under reception: "outmanoeuvred" - Is this a typo?
Doesn't seem to be. [2] Farrtj (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reception section is incredibly choppy. It's quote after quote after quote. Some statements between facts would lower the barrage of information without making it fluffy or lose any info.
  • In addition to his responsibilities at Diageo, Walsh has been a non-executive director at FedEx Corporation since 1996, at Unilever since 2009, and at Avanti Communications since 2012.[50][51][52] - This idea needs to be explained more. How did he start working at these companies? Why? This section is far too brief.
I have no idea and have been unable to find that information out.Farrtj (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Walsh comments, "I live a relatively modest life...my life tends to be the company: I love the company."[3] He spends around half of his time in various foreign countries where Diageo operates.[11] - This is all info that can be written as prose rather than a quote.
done.Farrtj (talk) 12:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In October 2012 Walsh publicly announced his engagement.[7] - The source does not make it seem like he announced it, rather that it was listed in the info table.
done.Farrtj (talk) 12:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's enough for now. ceranthor 18:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More Comments
  • Following Paul's work, in 1987 they moved to the United States, first New York, followed by Orono, Minnesota from 1990.[8] - Following Paul's work, while obvious to most readers, is phrased awkwardly. I think "Because of Paul's work" is better.
done.Farrtj (talk) 12:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other responsibilities could use a copyedit to make it more flowing. It's a bit choppy.
  • He admitted that he ought to have sold Burger King earlier: "With Pillsbury going, I was concerned we didn't have the capacity to handle both transactions at the same time. But I should have done them simultaneously."[12] - This doesn't read as an encyclopedia article should. It takes a non-neutral tone. He suggested that he ought to have sold might be better. Your move.
done.Farrtj (talk) 12:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Walsh was educated at his local comprehensive, the Royton and Crompton School, followed by Oldham College.[3][4] He initially aspired to become a fighter pilot after becoming influenced by his "hero", a mathematics teacher who had been in the Royal Air Force during World War II.[12] - I don't think the quotations on hero are necessary, but do as you will.
I mean that is the phrase that Walsh himself uses to describe him: otherwise it looks a bit hyperbolic.Farrtj (talk) 12:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Walsh has received admiration for his ability to build brands, whilst he has been criticised for what some see as an excessively high salary.[10] - Specify who "some" is. Fellow businessmen, social critics, etc.? See WP:WEASEL.
Done.Farrtj (talk) 10:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support On prose. Oddly it still seems to lack comprehensiveness, but I trust that Farrtj is right in saying it is comprehensive.
Done.Farrtj (talk) 10:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He has also been notably disciplined regarding prices paid for the acquisition of assets. - what do you mean by "disciplined" here - maybe "prudent" - "shrewd" or something - "disciplined" sounds odd.
I prefer disciplined.Farrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
avoid having all three paras in lead starting with "Walsh...." or his full name.
Done.Farrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
whilst he has been criticised for what some see as an excessively high salary - "receiving" an excessively high salary?" (actually could just say excessive salary - no meaning is lost.
No. I prefer it as it is.Farrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ok, this is not a biggie anyway. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Walsh joined Grand Metropolitan (Grand Met) in 1982 .... - link or explain what Grand Met is...
DoneFarrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've not heard any forms of coloour blindness referred to as "minor" - the most common is red/green. I'd remove the "minor" qualifier here.
DoneFarrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In 1997, Grand Met merged with Guinness; - again needs a qualifier, as we're presuming it means the company and not a pint of guiness....
Well the company was just known as Guinness, and I don't think people will assume that a company merged with a pint of beer. I've hotlinked it to Guinness Brewery anyway.Farrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Would you not say then "Irish brewing company Guiness?" Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
from a strong US brand - too jargony - I'd put in "well-known" for "strong"
Done.Farrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He identified Pillsbury as poorly integrated - what does this mean?
I think I've made this clearer now.Farrtj (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I agree it is clearer. It might even benefit from a sentence or two expanding on this - given that this is what this person is known for (and hence why he is notable) - just replacing people, more group bonding sessions, education etc. how he went about it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

more to come.

Delegate comment -- Casliber, do you still have anything to add? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:08, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did try cursorily googling, with precious little coming up. I guess we have everything already in it that we can cite. I will read one more time to examine how neutral the prose is. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, here's my dilemma - I am happy in that I can't see any deal-breakers in NPOV prose per se (a good thing). I am now thinking about sourcing and comprehensiveness. For instance, His great grandfather emigrated from Ireland, hence he bears the common Irish surname of Walsh. referenced to FN7, which is a piece on Guinness and Walsh making a link between himself and Ireland. The same article has him not in favour of raising the drinking age to 21 and seemingly linking cracking down on binge drinking to an infringement of civil liberties (!) as well as minimising the incidence and impact of binge drinking. It's tempting to include these views, but also to dismiss them as views held clearly to promote the sales of guinness, so part of me is happy to ignore them as well. I think we need more eyes on this one, and I might look at some of the references. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think he's just promoting the view held by his company there. I don't think it has any relevance to this article.Farrtj (talk) 10:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of people claim Irish ancestry. There's no reason to doubt that he has Irish ancestry. Walsh is a common Irish surname, and there are lots of people of Irish ancestry in the North West of England. Besides, the fallout if he was lying would be pretty big. Farrtj (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When one looks at the sources, the problems are really quite obvious, as I've said above. Take this one for example. The article says: "In 1996 he was made chairman and president of Pillsbury, which tripled in size and doubled its operating margins between 1992 and 2000." This is the source cited. In that source, Walsh himself, not the article's author, is quoted as saying: "Over 10 years, we tripled Pillsbury's size, and we certainly more than doubled its operating margins." There's no suggestion that this claim has been verified independently of Walsh. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I take your point, it's a fair one, and I have now removed the claim until an external source can be found. But I'd be very surprised if Walsh is lying here, for two reasons: 1) Why would be promoted to chairman if he was a poor manager? and 2) Why lie about something that can be easily verified? Farrtj (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have now found evidence that more or less backs up Walsh's claim, and added it to the article.Farrtj (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate's closing comment This nomination is over two months old but there is no clear consensus to promote and I will be archiving it in few moments.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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