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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Northern gannet/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 08:17, 22 July 2018 [1].

Northern gannet edit

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak (talk · contribs) & Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have buffed this article, which was built up by a former editor. It got a good going-over at GAN and I feel it is within striking distance of FA-hood. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Aa77zz edit

This article has a complex history. Before the recent edits this article was based on a translation of the article on Spanish wikipedia (see talk page template and edit here in Oct 2013 which was in turn a translation of the article on Galician (!) wikipedia see edits beginning in Sep 2008. The Galician article was clearly translated from the German version of April 2007 see this edit. The various translations retained the German references with S.=Seite=page and Band=volume.

As a result the current English article cites the German book Der Basstölpel Reinsch 1969 on 24 occasions. Clearly at the very least these need to be checked for accuracy, but I believe they should be replaced by cites to English language sources. Citing a German book for this article impedes the verification process; there are plenty of English language sources available and Reinsch doesn't appear to be an authority on this species - he isn't mentioned in the primary literature. Citations to Nelson 2010 also need to be checked.

I added all the Nelson 2010 ones, replacing the older ones based on the Gannet book. Will look to replacing Reinsch. I realised as I read source material that some segments had been mistranslated and removed/readjusted them to the source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:14, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed any remaining Reinsch refs, modifying and updating the text as required and with newer English refs Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • I'm not sure on this but I wonder whether a year should be included with the number of pairs in each colony. The numbers can easily become out of date (see Bonaventure below)
I have been debating this. On thinking about it, strikes me as a bit clunky prose-wise but given the variability of the colony sizes not a bad thing...added now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:53, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy

  • "The specific name bassanus is from the Bass Rock in the Firth of Forth, which holds the world's largest colony of northern gannets.[8]" Jobling doesn't mention largest colony.
  • "The ornithologist Bryan Nelson supported the species' inclusion in Sula..." This sentence needs slightly more context. (I notice that Peters and HBW also placed the gannets in Sula.)
Expanded Nelson's reasons Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Breeding colonies

  • "Bonaventure Island off the south coast of Quebec is the largest colony with 32,000 nests."[44] - but the more recent Ref 63 Chardine et al 2013 p.190 has 59,586 breeding pairs (say 60,000) - 2009 data. The number is also out-of-date in the lead.

Breeding

  • "The typical lifespan is 17 years." The article needs to explain that this is the life expectancy once they reach breeding age (5 years) see here. (calculated using lifespan = 5 + (-1/ln(0.919)) = 16.8 )

More later - Aa77zz (talk) 07:36, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

Breeding

  • "...so they stay at sea learning to fish and fly." Perhaps worth mentioning that when juveniles fledge they can barely fly. Cramp p. 190 has "Young leave nest sites before able to fly and begin dispersal by swimming". Nelson 1964 (Scottish Birds) has p.134 "Usually it jumps off the cliff edge and flies straight out to sea. Once having alighted it is unable to rise again for some time (possibly two weeks or more) and does not return to the nest to be fed." I haven't Nelson 1978/2010 or Nelson 2005.

In culture

  • "The Bird Rock colony in the Gulf of St Lawrence..." Bird Rocks
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:35, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nelson 1966 "The breeding biology of the gannet Sula Bassana on the Bass Rock, Scotland" Ibis 108 (4) 584-626 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1474-919X.1966.tb07210.x I cannot access this article but the abstract gives the average weight of an egg as 104.5g - This can be used as a source - exactly the same number is currently cited to Reinsch 1969, p. 59.
I replaced the ref. I suspect Reinsch obtained the value from Nelson anyway Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

- Aa77zz (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Supported above - great work -Aa77zz (talk) 15:57, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From FunkMonk edit

  • Will review as I read along. FunkMonk (talk) 08:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as Anser bassanus or scoticus" Under which circumstances did the describer use two different names?
  • Gesner simply presents them as alternatives with no explanation at all Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NB: This is not surprising given it is four centuries ago.. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "noting that the locals called it solendguse" The locals where?
  • "is compatriot the Louis Vieillot" Seems something is missing?
  • The various genus names listed under taxonomy are not linked.
  • "The ornithologist Bryan Nelson supported the species' inclusion" When? You give dates for other revisions.
  • 2010? I had assumed that this is the date of the reprint - the text was originally published in 1978. - Aa77zz (talk) 17:04, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mention a lot of synonyms combinations under taxonomy, so these and their authorities should also be listed in the taxobox, no?
  • Seems to have been done, we wouldn't normally include pre-Linneaen names such as Gessner's Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "or "parliament goose, missing last quotation mark.
  • So which of the other gannets is its closest relation?
  • The other two are very closely related to each other, so it might be tricky to find something that answers your question, I'll poke around Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • My reading was that the next closest lineage was the common ancestor that then diverged to the Cape and Australasian gannets. Hence the answer is "both" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:26, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems the two maps could be combined into one? They contain essentially the same information. But no big deal, the map in the taxobox just seems to make the breeding map redundant, though the latter is of course in higher res.
  • "Anatomical adaptations" Since everything listed earlier in description are also "anatomical adaptations", I think you need to be more specific here. Perhaps "Anatomical adaptations for diving" or such.
  • "The four toes feet" Toed?
  • The images seem a bit cluttered on the right side, perhaps stagger some of them?
  • I'm not keen, I'd rather lose an image or two, let's see what Cas thinks Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you cna use the space more eficiently if you shift the images up so that the diving bird is shown directly under behaviour (where flying is also discussed)? FunkMonk (talk) 04:00, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The northern species has more white" Which is the Northern species? Perhaps clearer to just use the name.
  • I thought "northern" was nominally and geographically pretty clear, but changed as requested Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:16, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I thought I had deleted this point after I realised the same, hehe... FunkMonk (talk) 11:24, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to the ornithologist Bryan Nelson" Not sure why you need a link all the way down here, the word is already mentioned under taxonomy.
rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:47, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "hey lack external nostrils and their secondary nostrils can be closed when they are under water." So where are the nostrils located?
  • "The lungs are highly developed" What does this mean? Developed for what?
  • "dense down feather" Feathers?
  • I think the intro needs more description of its colouration than just "mainly white".
added now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:57, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the largest member of the gannet family, Sulidae." The article body says "making it the largest seabird native to the western Palearctic", which is somewhat different, perhaps consolidate the two.
  • "This translation by James Fisher" Cite?
  • "68% of the world population breeds around the coasts of the British Isles." No source.
  • "appear white when seen from a distance, due to the number of nests present on them" And surely because of the excrements, no?
  • The brilliant white gannets are far more obvious and whiter than the excrement, which is largely hidden by the sitting birds anyway. If you look at File:Fous de bassan Bonnaventure.JPG I think it's pretty clear that the birds are what you see. I'll add the excrement if you think it's worth it, but that seems close to OR Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, it was more of a question, I see the excrements aren't that apparent... FunkMonk (talk) 06:42, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't Alderney be grouped with the UK rather than separately?
  • No, it's a crown dependency with its own legislature, taxes etc, not part of the UK Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in 2000'" what's that last apostrophe for? Instead of a comma?
  • "around 40 km north" Needs conversion.
  • "The species has been recorded as a vagrant in ... Svalbard" But it breeds there? So I guess that was before?
  • Are all those external links needed? Some seem redundant in relation to what's already in the article.
  • Cut to two, feel free to remove those if you think they are unneed, I'm no fan of ELs Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There does not seem to be any physical description of the egg? At least the colour should be stated.
I added egg details Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:52, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The egg measurements could get conversions.
  • We often leave in mm only since most bird eggs are so small, but that doean't apply to the gannet so converted Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:13, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "per square metre" Conversion?
  • "light for such a large large seabird." Cut.
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:56, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Once the leave the nest" They?
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:56, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - but you might want to look at the sentence that was just changed to "yearsnce the leold"! FunkMonk (talk) 12:22, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ha ha, I'd like to know what Cas was on! Fixed now, many thanks for review and support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:34, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This goddamn laoptop has a very sensitive touchpad resulting in some unexpected cursor migration....sigh Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:48, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Basstölpel_(Sula_bassana)_world.png: suggest including a legend clarifying the meaning of the dots, and also adding a source to the description page
  • File:Leucothea_Allasseur_cour_Carree_Louvre.jpg needs a copyright tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:51, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added PD-old, PD-US

Comments by Wehwalt edit

Might take me a day or two, but to start things:

  • "It now faces few natural or man-made threats," The word "now" seems unnecessary.
  • "Young birds have been called "spotted booby" or "parliament goose", referring to their plumage." presumably the "referring" is to "spotted" rather than "parliament"? Possibly a tweak needed.
  • "The latter then splitting into the Cape and Australasian gannets around 0.5 million years ago.[19]" verb issue.
  • "The nostrils are inside the bill and can be closed to prevent water entry, and the eyes are protected by strong nictitating membranes.[30]" and ... and
  • "These sacs are connected to the lungs and are filled with air when the bird breathes in. The air can be expelled by muscle contractions.[31]" I would expect, based on the first sentence, for the air to be expelled when the bird breathes out.
  • "According to Nelson northern gannets can recognize the call of their breeding partner, chicks and birds in neighbouring nests." reads a bit oddly, Maybe put a "their" before "chicks"?--Wehwalt (talk) 04:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The rest:
  • "The northern gannet's breeding range is on both coasts of the North Atlantic on coasts influenced by the Gulf Stream,[36]" Coasts ... coasts. Maybe sub in a "sides" for the first or "shores" for the second, either.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The northern gannet's breeding range is on both coasts of the North Atlantic on coasts influenced by the Gulf Stream,[36] the exception being the colonies of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and the islands off the east coast of Canada." Judging by the map, these last colonies seem to be on the coast of Newfoundland and so would be influenced by the Gulf Stream.
  • "and as food reserves during extended periods without food.[23]" I would cut the first use of "food"
  • "The cliffs containing the colonies appear white when seen from a distance, due to the number of nests present on them. " Nests or guano?
  • Changed to breeding birds, the brilliant white of the gannet is far more conspicuous than the droppings Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:57, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There are small colonies on Ireland's southern coast,[51] on Bull Rock, County Mayo, Clare Island and Great Saltee Island, County Wexford.[52]" a little tweaking to the location names as related to the counties, perhaps.
  • You refer to both Svalbard and Spitsbergen. Consistency.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bonaventure Island off the south coast of Quebec " I don't think that's an accurate way of stating its locale. Check our article on the island and a map.
  • " Should one of the pair die, the other bird will leave the breeding ground and find another mate.[99]" You mean they would find another colony?
  • I might link "fence" or "fencing".
  • Are there explanations for why the population is growing?
High reproductive success, added with ref Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's about it.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support, all looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:28, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review edit

Very little: all links working correctly, just a few quibbles:

  • Page range formats need to be consistent throughout. Compare, for example, 47 with e.g. 56 or 57
aligned Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 11: according to the ref, "Version 8.1" but according to the source, "Version 8.2"
aligned. IOC birdlist updated recently Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 81 and 89: publisher should be given as The Cornell Lab of Ornithology rather than a web address.
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, all sources are in good order and appear to be of the required standards of quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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