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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Leopard 2E

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 05:37, 15 July 2008 [1].

Leopard 2E edit

Nominator(s): JonCatalán (talk)


This article passed a Good Article Review on 17 June 2008, but subsequently failed its A-Class Review - this seems to be the system, given that it only received a single support (although no opposes). Everything in the review was responded do, and if there were issues they were fixed. Given that in my opinion it did pass the ACR, it just did not receive enough attention from potential voters, I want to put it up for FAC, instead of going through the ACR process again. Please, tell me if there are any issues and I will immediately solve them, thanks! JonCatalán (talk) 12:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MilHist A-class Review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy, this is the Peer review. Yours is the ACR. Woody (talk) 21:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • The Santa Barbara Sistemas reference is lacking publisher.
  • I'm assuming that current note 39 United Nationas Register of Conventional Arms is the same as the the ref "Spain" United Natioansl Register of Conventiaonl Arms? Probablys should list the note as "Spain" United Nations Register of Conventional Arms to make it consistent.
  • I'm unable to judge the reliability of the Spanish language sources.
  • Please alphabetize your references for ease of the reader finding them from the notes.
Otherwise sources look good. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback on the sources; the Spanish-language sources are from El País, a national newspaper, while the majority of the rest are from a monthly defense magazine called Fuerza Terrestre - many of the sources used for this article (except those published in Fuerza Terrestres) were also used for the Lince (tank) article. In regards to the SBS reference, who would I mark as the publisher? It's the company's website. As for the alphabetization of the sources, sources without authors are listed first and by title, otherwise they are alphabetized by author. Finally, I changed note 39! JonCatalán (talk) 12:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The SBS, I'd list the company as the publisher, that's who is putting the information out. I'm sure Sandy will look at the Spanish language sources for me, since I'm distressingly monolingual. (Okay, well, some Latin, but that's so useful!) I'd alphabetize all the references together. The idea is that when the reader wants to look up the full bibliographical details, they go to the references list which is alphabetical and easily find the shortened form you've used in the notes. So the references should have the first item of the entry be whatever the first item of the notes is. Usually that's author, but if it is lacking an author, it's title. So you alphabetize the references by the first item listed in each entry to make it easier for the reader to find the correct entry. Right now, they can't do that easily. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done! JonCatalán (talk) 13:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll check the Spanish-language sources once they are cleaned up. JonCatalán, after several FACs, we shouldn't have to point out the same issues again. Please separate References used in the article from those not used (as Further reading). Please use consistent date formatting and linking within your citations. Please use the language icon (in Spanish) consistently within citations (either at the beginning or the end of each citation, as long as you're consistent). And please use endashes instead of hyphens on page ranges: User:Brighterorange can run a script to fix them for you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to Spanish language tagging, all the references should have 'Spanish' added in the template (instead of adding the es icon out of the template) - the news article seems to put it at the end, and the rest seem to put it after the title. Perhaps the templates should be revisited, because in regards to template Wiki code all of the references are consistent. All of the articles and books cited in the references section are used in the text, as well. And, if I missed some references I apologize, but I thought I had changed all the dashes to en dashes. :/ I apologize. JonCatalán (talk) 09:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was 'changing' all the dashes to endashes, but it won't save the changes - so, I'm assuming that they are already endashes. JonCatalán (talk) 23:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good news. I left a message on the citation template talk page and it should all be standardized now! JonCatalán (talk) 21:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • "1987 – 1993" – "1987–1993"
  • "Santa Bárbara Sistemas, Santa Bárbara Sistemas y el Programa Leopardo 2E, retrieved June 5, 2008" – missing publisher

Gary King (talk) 19:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both have been fixed! For the note, I kept consistency with the references and put Santa Bárbara Sistemas after the title, to denote the publisher - since, there is really no stated author. JonCatalán (talk) 10:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Made some minor edits. It is much better documented than the Leopard tank article. Good job. Enriquecardova (talk) 15:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but I think 'see also' sections are discouraged because they are not aesthetic. Many of those tanks are wikilinked from the article. Perhaps there is a better way of wikilinking some of those links? Thanks. JonCatalán (talk) 15:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Has only improved since its (unfortunately) failed ACR. And yeah, "See Also" shouldn't be used in a well-wikilinked article. Cam (Chat) 06:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No strong feelings on the See Also. It can be taken out.Enriquecardova (talk) 20:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on availability Hi, I am leaving my flat this weekend and so my internet access may be non-existant. I will try to access the computer prior to 14 July, but that's when I return to San Diego, California. If I do not respond to requests until then, you know my reasoning - I hope that this can stay open until then. JonCatalán (talk) 13:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support

The Leopard 2E is expected to remain in service until 2025 at least - This needs to be rephrased as the end sounds awkward, but otherwise it's a fine article and definitely FA material. Skinny87 (talk) 23:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, since it's supposed to remain in service until 2025, I took out the at least (redundant, in any case). JonCatalán (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't make it past the first two sentences:

The Leopard 2E is a variant of the German-made Leopard 2 main battle tank tailored to the requirements of the Spanish Army, which acquired it as part of an armament modernization program named Programa Coraza, or Program Armor. The acquisition program for the Leopard 2E began in 1994, five years after the cancellation of the Lince tank program, when Spain started procurement efforts to acquire the Leopard 2.

WP:ITALICS are used for non-English language words, but the opening sentence is the opposite, with Programa Coraza unitalicized yet Program Armor italicized. Please check the entire article for italicization of foreign phrases (non-English). I can't sort what the first sentence means; it seems to be missing a comma somewhere, and I don't know what "main battle tank" means. I can't sort the meaning of the second sentence. Acquisition program ... procurement efforts to acquire? Isn't that redundant? I think it says the same thing three times (acquisition, procurement, acquire). Is it trying to say, "In 1994, five years after the Lince tank program was cancelled, Spain started the program to acquire the Leopard 2E? That's as far as I got; the prose is going to need attention. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Sandy. I did some copyediting to work on the sentences you mentioned and to do some copyediting per Tony's comments below. I hope it looks better now. If not I will continue to work on it when I return to San Diego on the 14th. Thanks! JonCatalán (talk) 17:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose until copy-edited throughout by fresh eyes. Here are random examples.

  • "In 2005 it was declared by the Spanish government that the 108 Leopard 2A4s were to cost Spain 16.9 million euros, which were to be paid by 2016." Clumsy sentence.
  • Equivalency. Why not plain "equivalence"?
    • "Like the Swedish Leopard 2S (Strv 122), the Leopard 2E also has increased armor thickness"—Spot the redundant word.
    • Hyphen? "identical second generation thermal viewers"
  • What's wrong with this one? "These are integrated into the tank's by"

TONY (talk) 10:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Tony, thanks for the review! I did some 'extensive' copyediting on the article, trying to get rid of some redundant words. I hope it looks better now. As per the hyphen in thermal viewers, I don't think there is one (one is not included in the source, for example - but the author of the source is Spanish and English is not his native language so I'm not sure). If it doesn't look good yet I will continue to work on it when I come back and try to put it through the league of copyeditors. Thanks! JonCatalán (talk) 17:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have asked another editor to look through the article and copy edit it as needed, but I don't know when said editor will be able to get to it. I hope that this FAC is not forgotten! JonCatalán (talk) 18:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with one caveat:
    • On my computer, there is a very large gap between the heading for Programa Coraza and the text in that section. I suspect that is because the image is underneath the infobox. Perhaps the image could be moved to the left?

Karanacs (talk) 02:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

      • With the editing done while I was flying the problem doesn't seem to show up on my computer here, but I did see it when I was using a computer in an internet café in Madrid. Is the problem still existing on your screen? JonCatalán (talk) 03:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note, partial and incomplete date delinking on yet another FAC, and failure to add WP:NBSPs on delinked dates. Also, is it Armor Program or Program Armor? The article is inconsistent. All of the date delinking and NBSPs need to be fixed. Incorrect endashes as well (2003 – 2008); please have someone who knows MoS go through and catch all of this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    For future reference, WP:NBSP just changed.[2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for going through and offering some samples. For example, I tried to add some nbsp's were I could find the need for them, such as Leopard 2 and what not. I'm not sure about 'manhours' - it's certainly the terminology the source uses, but it may not be politically correct from an English-speaking perspective. I'm not sure. JonCatalán (talk) 03:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've withdrawn my oppose, but there are still a few things to fix. There's "2x" in the infobox; is this meant to be two times ...? If so, "2 ×".
  • "with 15 more being delivered before the end"—Remove "being".
  • Should "Leopard 2E" be bolded in the captions?
  • "It is also one of the most expensive Leopard 2s built to date"—Remove "also". I see other alsos that need to be weeded out ("scope ...").
  • Caption: Close-up ...—Shouldn't finish with a dot. See MOS. TONY (talk) 08:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS I think I've fixed the hard spaces and date auto stuff. TONY (talk) 09:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I believe that User:Mattisse has been kind enough to do quite a bit of copy editing and fixed these issues themselves. JonCatalán (talk) 03:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reviewing only image licensing: looks good. --NE2 13:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, all the images are my own. JonCatalán (talk) 03:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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