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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Larry Doby/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 15:27, 24 May 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Larry Doby edit

Larry Doby (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Zepppep, Wizardman 22:21, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Even those who aren't baseball fans know the story of Jackie Robinson, the saga of the first African-American to play in the major leagues. This article is on the second African-American to play in the major leagues, one who had to endure the same hardships as Robinson, yet has largely been forgotten, unfairly so given that both players were Hall of Famers. Larry Doby's career was one of perseverance and determination, not to mention a good number of home runs.

As for why I'm nomming it, after it became a GA, I did multiple top-to bottom rewrites on it in an attempt to bring it here and get it on the main page one day. I believe now it's as good as it will like ever be, and it now meets all FA criteria. Wizardman 22:21, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Wizardman. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed that one, looking through the rest of the article since there may be more instances like that. Wizardman 00:42, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - All images are used appropriately, and the first two (the baseball cards) are in the public domain per the Library of Congress, as the copyright was not renewed. The last image is a self-created image by User:Silent Wind of Doom, and is appropriately licensed. Check an image review off the list. Go Phightins! 19:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Looking good generally. I've read down to the end of "Early life", and it is very readable so far. Just a little prose polish needed here and there. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • "He helped the Indians win a franchise-record 111 wins and the AL pennant in 1954 and finished second in the AL Most Valuable Player (MVP) award voting as the season's RBI leader and home run champion for the second time in three seasons. “: “win … wins", “and…and…and"
  • "the first black player to integrate the American League" and later “the first African-American players to win a World Series championship": Not a big deal, but is there any particular reason why we use first black, then African-American? Or is it just for variety?
  • And on this subject, should something about being a pioneering black player be mentioned in the first paragraph? Otherwise, we wait until the second paragraph to make a fairly major point.

Early life:

  • "Doby was born in Camden, South Carolina to David and Etta.": I think it is better if we give their surnames here as well.
  • "He died at the age of 37 from a drowning accident in New York state": A drowning accident? We don’t need all of this here: what about “He drowned in an accident in New York state, aged 37"?
  • Obvious question: why did he not go with his mother?
  • "The first opportunity he had to play organized baseball was while a student at Browning Home-Mather Academy": Perhaps better as “organized baseball came as a student…"?
  • "Richard Dubose, known in local African-American circles for his baseball expertise": Locally, or nationally?
  • "including how he and play mates": Should play mates be one word?
  • "including how he and play mates would use worn down broom handles for bats": I don’t think we really need “would" here; it may be better as “play mates used worn down broom handles".
  • "although he would be living full-time with a friend of his mother's and visit his mother once per week": Again, I’m not a huge fan of the “would" construction here.
  • "Doby lettered in track and was an all-state athlete in baseball": This is pretty meaningless outside North America, so some links, notes or further explanation may be needed.
  • "the team voted in support of Doby to forgo the trip.": Is this better as “the team voted to forgo the trip as a gesture of support for Doby"?
  • "He also enjoyed a brief stint with the Harlem Renaissance": Do we know he enjoyed it? If this is just a synonym for “had", perhaps a more neutral word is needed. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Lead and early life done so far. Issues fixed sans the question of why he didn't stay with his mom. After double-checking a few of the book sources none of them gave a reason as to why he didn't live with her. My guess is the divorce had something to do with it, or there was pressure for her not to be a single mother, but that's entirely speculation on my part. Wizardman 21:52, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Negro leagues’’’:

  • "A Negro league umpire, Henry Moore, advised Newark Eagles' owners Abe and Effa Manley to give Doby a tryout at Hinchliffe Stadium in Paterson. The tryout was successful, and Doby joined the Eagles in 1942 at the age of 17 for $300.": Can we combine these sentences in some way to avoid repeating “tryout"?
  • "Of the games Doby played in, 26 box scores have been found and concluded his batting average was .391.": As written, this states that the box scores worked out his average.
  • "Before serving in the Pacific Theater of World War II, Doby would spend time at Navy sites in Ogden, Utah and San Diego, California" and “While in Hawaii, Doby would meet fellow Navy man and future teammate Mickey Vernon": Again, it is better to avoid the “would" construction.
  • "For one year he was stationed on Ulithi in the Pacific Ocean in 1945": Redundancy?
  • "Doby saw real hope in being a professional baseball player instead of his aspirations to be a teacher and coach.": Something does not quite work here. Instead of his aspirations?
  • "He made the All-Star roster and batted .360 (fourth in the NNL), hit five home runs (fifth) and led the NNL in triples (six).": And…and Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Integration of American League’’’:

  • For the benefit of anyone who may be unfamiliar with this sorry tale, could we briefly explain why the league was not integrated already?
  • "Veeck had already undertaken efforts in hopes of locating a young, talented player from the Negro leagues": Efforts to do what?
  • "The reporter suggested Doby, of whom Veeck had seen play at the Great Lakes Naval Training School."
  • "Unlike Rickey, who declined to pay for the purchasing rights of Robinson with the Kansas City Monarchs": Lost me here…
  • "It would be the only game Doby would start for the remainder of the season. Doby finished the game 1-for-4, recording his first major league hit and RBI in a 5–1 Indians win": Can we explain these numbers?
  • "Said noted former player Rogers Hornsby, after watching Doby play one time in 1947:": I think it is better as “Noted former player Rogers Hornsby said, after watching…"
  • "Doby roomed alone his rookie year, and in some cities, namely Chicago and St. Louis, was not allowed to stay in the same hotels as his white teammates.": This is almost repeating what the earlier long quote says. Do we need both, or can they be combined?
  • I think this section may need a bit more on Jackie Robinson, to give a little more context and for comparison. As your intro here says, Doby was the second black player, but we do not say so in this section, where it would make most sense. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the comments so far. I'll try to get to them all in the next couple days, though depending on work I may just sweep through them all over the weekend instead. Wizardman 00:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Negro Leagues and integration done. I'll re-read and try to add a bit more that would fit on Robinson. Wizardman 02:16, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cleveland Indians:

  • This is a very long section. Could it be split up?
  • Can we avoid the over-use of the phrase "spring training" in the first paragraph?
  • "During his early years when Doby was in the dugout often, Doby also credited Indians coach Bill McKechnie, who remained in the dugout while Boudreau would play shortstop, with helping him adjust to the majors and learning the outfield.": Another "would", but this sentence seems quite mangled. Repetition of "dugout" and the phrasing seems off. And where has the "also" come from?
  • Consecutive sentences beginning "During" here, as well.
  • "Doby's presence on the team grew in several categories": This doesn't really make sense.
  • "His game appearances jumped four-fold from one season ago to 121. He hit .301 on the season with 14 home runs and 66 RBIs, and he raised his batting average nearly 20 points in the last 25 games of the regular season from September 1 to October 4.": And this is quite choppy, and reads like sports journalese.
  • "Throughout the regular season Doby was the recipient of racial slurs from opposing teams": Why not "Doby was racially abused..."? That would be tighter.
  • "Doby became an important piece of Cleveland's World Series victory against the Boston Braves": More journalese: "piece"?
  • "In Game 4 on October 9, Doby became the first black player to hit a home run in World Series history when he hit one off the Braves' Johnny Sain.": Would be better as "In Game 4 on October 9, Doby hit the first home run by a black player in World Series history", and I'm not sure we need the name of the pitcher. If you think we really need it, maybe finish "scored against..." or similar.
  • "pitched a complete game in Game 4": Can we avoid "game...Game"?
  • "The photo has been called "a signature moment in the integration of Major League Baseball."": By who?
  • Could we include that photo? If it's not free, I think it would easily fall under FU as it is directly referenced in the article.
  • "Nationally syndicated columnist Grantland Rice argued that without Doby and Gene Bearden, the Indians would have finished in fourth or fifth place.": Perhaps a word about what Bearden did?
  • "but were kept out when members in the community revealed a petition.": This sounds odd. Revealed to who?
  • "Boudreau fined his center fielder": Took me a while to work out who this was!
  • "Upon the conclusion of the season": Wordy. Why not "At the end of the season"?
  • "...Cleveland signed him to a new contract resulting in increased pay.": Why not "he signed a new, more lucrative contract"?
  • "Following the season, Doby was named": A bit too similar to the previous sentence.
  • "Doby's power numbers went down in 1951, hitting 20 home runs and 69 RBIs": Power numbers? And this sentence reads that his numbers hit 20 home runs.
  • "Indians general manager Hank Greenberg reduced Doby's salary despite Doby stating he would not accept a pay cut.[48][49] Doby attributed his lower numbers to tightness in his legs.": And now I'm lost. He just had a pay rise, and now a pay cut. Why? And why would he not accept it? And then why did he accept it? And what have his numbers got to do with this? Not clear at all.
  • In fact, that whole paragraph is a little choppy and hard to follow.
  • "However, despite pre-season conditioning, leg injuries were with him to begin the season's campaign.": More journalese style.
  • "Doby stated he was "not even making any plans to go to Tucson for spring training" leading up to the 1953 season,as he had asked Greenberg and Indians management to pay him at his 1951 salary level, $25,000, which was reduced after the 1952 season.": Missing space after 1953 season, and this remark has no context. What did he mean? Did they pay him? We just go straight into stats without following this up.

Down to the end of that section now, but the prose isn't great around here, and the narrative is getting very choppy. It might be worth checking the rest of the article for similar issues as this part is some way short of FA prose-standards. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:15, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • In progress on this section; just dropping a line to note I haven't forgotten, just haven't really been on. Should be fully completed on the 4th. Wizardman 00:27, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Finally done here. I'll do another quick run-through of that section as well, since the 1951-53 era or so is rather spotty. I'll look into the image to see if it's PD, hoping it is. If not I might include it; I'm not a fan of adding fair-use images but it is a case where an exception could be made given its importance. Wizardman 17:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Latter years:

  • Not a fan of the use of "swept", as it seems jargony, but not a huge issue I suppose.
  • "Doby and the White Sox had swept New York": Do we need "had" here?
  • "The White Sox had won eight straight": A touch of sports journalese here.
  • "In a game on August 20, 1957, against the Washington Senators, Doby helped preserve pitcher Bob Keegan's no-hitter with a backhand catch off a long line drive from Herb Plews, one of "two close calls" for Keegan that game.": Borderline jargon, but I wonder if this actually can be simplified without losing the meaning or making it too cumbersome.
  • "Doby was part of a December 3, 1957, multi-player trade between the White Sox and Baltimore Orioles, but was traded before the 1958 season began": trade...traded
  • "He appeared in 89 games with the Indians that season and had a .289 batting average, and accumulated 13 home runs and 45 RBIs.": and...and
  • "and would be the first black player to play for the Tiger franchise.": why would?
  • "for an "over the waiver price" of $20,000": for a what??
  • "During the same season, Doby was traded to the White Sox, again acquired by Veeck.": I may be missing something, but I can make no sense of this sentence!
  • "Doby fractured an ankle while sliding into third base after hitting a triple during a road game the Padres played against Sacramento, in which Doby was sent to a local hospital in Sacramento before going to Johns Hopkins Hospital for further evaluation.": Can we avoid using "Doby" twice in one sentence?
  • "Doby, hobbled by ankle injuries": Not sure this is encyclopaedic.

Down to the end of MLB career now, but I haven't checked the changes made yet. I'm still finding lots of fiddly little issues, but nothing major. Although, to be honest, more than I would expect by the time it reached FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:24, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Issues fixed here. If I have time I'll pre-emptively take another look at the final couple sections, since if the later part of his career is any indication I didn't fine-tune it as much as I did earlier on. Wizardman 02:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Managerial:

  • "He managed five seasons of winter leagues in Venezuela, including Águilas del Zulia during the 1970–71 winter season.": Not quite sure what this means: what did he manage? Teams? The whole league?
  • "When Aspromonte was fired after the 1974 season, the Indians named Frank Robinson the club's player-manager, which stunned Doby.": Why?
  • "At age 53, Doby became the second black manager in the majors.": Begs the question as to who was first?
  • "Veeck hired player-manager Don Kessinger to succeed Doby": Seems pretty obvious, but can we state why? Also, was he explicitly sacked?
  • "Doby's involvement with professional sports was not yet finished, however.": Not sure we need this comment at all. Doesn't add much.
  • "In addition to being named all-state in basketball while in high school and receiving a basketball scholarship at Long Island University and later playing in the American Basketball League": As written, and given its place in the article, this looks like it took place after he retired from baseball.

Second man:

  • "Eleven weeks after the annual tradition of all MLB players wearing jerseys paying homage to Robinson, Scoop Jackson in 2007 wrote": This does not quite make sense. How can it take place after a tradition? Needs re-wording.
  • "Said former teammate Al Rosen": Again, this is better the other way around.

Hall of fame:

  • "Although he was the first to play in MLB, Doby was the last member elected to the Hall of the four players to ever play in both a Negro league and MLB World Series: Doby, Satchel Paige, Monte Irvin, and Willie Mays.": May be better written as "the others being Satchel Paige..." etc

Death and legacy:

  • "Doby underwent a kidney removal operation after a cancerous tumor was detected in 1997": Wordy. Maybe just "Doby had a kidney removed in 1997 after a cancerous tumour was detected"
  • Would the parts around the Indians Hall of Fame be better placed chronologically in the main part of the article?

That's everything for the moment; I'll have a look at the whole article again once these comments and those of Resolute have been addressed. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rest of issues fixed. Only thing I didn't change was the Indians Hall of Fame note, since it's lumped in with various other honors currently and makes sense to me. I can try placing it elsewhere to see if it fits, though. Wizardman 03:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Source comment - I suppose this is a relatively minor concern, however since Doby is an American, and thus the article is on an American topic, should dates not be expressed in mdy format as opposed to dmy (per WP:STRONGNAT? Not a hill on which I am willing to die, but a consideration nonetheless. Go Phightins! 00:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    The prose is all in mdy format. Since the refs were all consistent I decided not to change them to that format; if that is an issue I can always swap those. Wizardman 00:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from TonyTheTiger
  • You should be using team-season articles correctly in an FA. A sentence like "The two took a train from Newark to Chicago where the Indians were scheduled to play the Chicago White Sox the next day." Should be pointing the reader to the page most likely to have relevant information. The 1947 Chicago White Sox season and 1947 Cleveland Indians season should be linked in a sentence like this. Could you properly incorporate team-season articles throughout.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:01, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, why did you link to Los Angeles Dodgers#Team_history rather than History of the Brooklyn Dodgers?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll fix the Dodgers link. As for the season pipelinks, I'll look over the article again and fit them in where they make sense, though I disagree that your sample sentence above fits properly for them, given that they just note the teams without the year's context. Wizardman 23:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    The "year's context" is provided by the chronology of the presentation. If you have written the article at an FA level, it should be clear to the readers who was playing in the game and in this case, it is clearly the 1947 Chicago White and 1947 Cleveland Indians. I presume that you feel a reader understands this sentence is about a game between the 1947 Chicago White and 1947 Cleveland Indians or do you think this is a mystery/surprise to the reader?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Your demands create overlinking issues and WP:EGGs. The team article itself should be linked on first use, and not thereafter. I would leave the final decision up to Wizardman, but I believe we should not be bathing our reader in a sea of low-value blue links. Resolute 13:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Team season links are not low value links. They are suppose to be used in prose when they are the subject of the prose. WP:EGGs can be avoided.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not going to get into an argument here as I do not wish to derail Zepppep and Wizardman's FAC (in fact, I will try to do a full review of my own later today), but I will make note that your personal opinion that such links be used is no more an FAC requirement than it was a GA requirement, despite your attempt to appear authoritative on this point. Resolute 17:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Resolute

I will try to avoid duplicating unresolved comments from above

Lead
  • Factual accuracy on Doby being the second black player in MLB. Moses Fleetwood Walker is often credited as the first, before the color barrier was formalized, and Jackie Robinson, obviously. I would suggest rewording to specify that Doby was the second black MLBer after the color barrier was broken.
  • This is going to seem ridiculously pedantic, but you note in one sentence that Doby accepted a basketball scholarship, and in the next that he became a second baseman in Newark. A potential reader who is not familiar with either sport will not realize we have switched from basketball back to baseball.
  • "He helped the Indians win a franchise-record 111 games and the AL pennant in 1954, finishing second in the AL Most Valuable Player (MVP) award voting as the season's RBI leader and home run champion for the second time in three seasons." - mixed tense. I might reword to "He helped the Indians win a franchise-record 111 games and the AL pennant in 1954, finished second in the AL Most Valuable Player (MVP) award voting and was the AL's RBI leader and home run champion for the second time in three seasons."
    • Also, was Doby both the RBI leader and home run champion twice in three seasons?
  • Note what year he retired as a player.
  • "Doby later served as the second black manager..." - run-on sentence. Also, the basketball piece doesn't fit well in the middle of the two baseball entries. Since you aren't giving years, mention the two baseball jobs in one sentence, and the basketball directorship in another.
Early life
  • "Doby lettered in track and also played, football..." - That comma after played is very awkward and leaves the entire sentence a little off-kilter. As as suggestion for rewording: "Doby was a multi-sport athlete at Patterson's Eastside High school. In addition to baseball and basketball, he was a wide receiver in football and lettered in track."
  • "...where he played with shortstop teammate and future Hall of Famer Monte Irvin." - If he played with Irvin, it is already implied they were teammates. "...where he played with future Hall of Fame shortstop Monte Irvin."
  • When you first mention/link the Negro National League, you should add (NNL) after to put future uses of the acronym in context.
Negro Leagues
  • (Total aside: As a fan of Canadian baseball and Larry Walker, I find that this was also a pseudonym of Doby's to be pretty amazing!)
  • "Of the games Doby played in..." - That cannot be said definitively since you later state that not all box scores are available. I would suggest "In the 26 games where box scores have been found, Doby's batting average was .391", or something similar.
Major League Baseball.
  • I would pipe Commissioner of Baseball down to just Commissioner.
  • It is noted that Veeck asked the AL president for support in getting other players to "rein in their animosity". Do we know if that request was successful?
  • "...but hit 29 home runs and 102 RBIs on the year. He also had 96 walks on the year, third in the AL." - overuse of "on the year.
  • When you note that the White Sox finished sixth in the AL in team home runs, that is hard to put into context because of how many teams are in the AL today. Perhaps specify they were sixth of eight teams in the AL.
  • In the latter years section, you end one paragraph by stating Doby was sold to the White Sox. The next paragraph begins by noting he was traded to the White Sox. Given he was acquired by Veeck again, I take this to mean that he was traded to the Indians?
  • "In 1960, Doby, hobbled by ankle injuries, worked out with the White Sox before the 1960 season but did not earn a roster spot." - Don't need the second instance of "1960".
  • "In late-April..." - Is that hyphen properly placed?
Managerial
  • Why did Frank Robinson's promotion to manager in Cleveland "stun" Doby?
  • Spell out "National Basketball Association" on first use.

Many of the prose concerns Sarastro already mentioned (and I may have duplicated some). Will take a second pass once these are all resolved. Cheers! Resolute 01:17, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Issues fixed. On the animosity quote, i'm not sure if it was successful immediately. It of course lessened over time, but the gradual change wouldn't feel right thrown in there. Also I confirmed the reference said that Doby was stunned, but it went into no further detail so I just removed it. Wizardman 03:04, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Looks like you've resolved my initial comments. I do want to take a second pass, and will try to do so soon! Resolute 00:55, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm not convinced the prose is quite there yet. I've copy-edited one section here (feel free to revert anything I've messed up) to give some idea of what might be required. I'm a little pressed for time at the moment, and may not be able to do a full copy-edit myself (although I'll see what I can do), but I think the prose still needs a little work. (Incidentally, did he ever play for LIU: the article seems a little vague around this point) Sarastro1 (talk) 19:18, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do a run-through this weekend and try to fine-tune the prose a bit further. Wizardman 11:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, my time's going to be very limited for at least the next few weeks, and after a skim re-read I want to do some more prose polishing to try and bring it up to FA level. Since that's going to take a while due to a combination of the above, I request that this be withdrawn. Wizardman 00:24, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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