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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Juwan Howard/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 13:21, 15 October 2010 [1].

Juwan Howard edit

Juwan Howard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger

I am nominating this for featured article because it is a high caliber article that failed the previous nomination without significant unresolved outstanding issues. I have requested that the current PR be closed. For me this is a WP:CUP-eligible nomination and I hope it can be closed by month end.TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:CANVASS; reviewers of older basketball FACs were asked to review, but all opposing reviewers were not contacted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I probably missed a few supports and a few opposes inadvertantly. I even omitted you because, I don't think you really review anymore now that you run the process, but I think you supported on one.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you omitted Sandy because she "run[s] the process", why include me? This causes me even further concerns over canvassing...Tony, you need to check the FACs where you got reviewer names very closely again and make sure you include everyone. Karanacs (talk) 14:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found one person who opposed one of the three basketball FAs he participated in.
I also contacted 1, 2 omitted people.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - no dab links, no dead external links, will likely add further comments later. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:30, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments, leaning oppose

  • ToC is quite long. One-paragraph sections inhibit flow, and some of the divisions seem rather arbitrary - why does Pop culture not fall under Other endeavors?
  • "Juwan Antonio Howard (born February 7, 1973, in Chicago, Illinois), is an American professional basketball player" - grammar
  • Need general read-through for clarity and flow, and to make sure that the text is accessible to a non-specialist reader
  • Is he 6'8'' or 6'9''?
    • We are talking about professional sports measurements where marketing of talent is an issue and heights are misrepresented. Surely, if he is 6'9", there was a time when he was 6'8". The text says as a soph in high school he was 6'8". A quick scan of the article does not show any conflict of him becoming 6'9" and then later 6'8". He may still only be 6'8", but he would be more highly demanded at 6'9". If he is listed at 6'9", he is likely between 6'7" and 6'8.5".--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was sent home early on the last day of the six-day camp...he was shipped home on the last day of the six-day camp" - repetitive
  • "Howard was drafted a full round ahead of Thomas, which is one type of recognition of him surpassing Thomas" - very vague and awkward phrase
  • "By this time, Howard had eliminated DePaul from consideration since Deryl Cunningham, another Chicago-area all-star, had transferred to Kansas State" - I'm not understanding that logic leap - what's the connection?
  • Don't link the same term multiple times, especially not in close proximity
    • I will check but if you have any specific problems let me know.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • P.S. keep in mind many of the problems you see are templates waiting for article all going to the same default.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • ...What? Could you explain that statement? I'm not sure what it means. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • E.G., {{NBA Year|1996|team=Washington Wizards|title=Washington Wizards}} and {{NBA Year|1997|team=Washington Wizards|title=Wizards}} are both templates that await individual season articles. They default to the main team article right now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Howard wavered between Arizona State and Michigan" - earlier his top-six options included University of Arizona, not Arizona State - which is correct?
  • "All-Public School League" or "Public League" or "Public School League" or "All-Chicago Public School League"? Be consistent
  • "He had become friends with King when they visited Michigan" - since King hasn't been mentioned since the lead, you should give his full name here, and for Rose
  • "Howard's son, Juwan Howard, Jr., is the child of Markita Blyden" - where did that come from? When was this son born, and under what circumstances?
    • Are you suggesting that this content is malplaced in the personal section or that the personal section is malplaced? Some quick math shows this son being born while Juwan was at Michigan in my estimation. I don't think the news bureaus keep track of out-of-wedlock kids born to future NBA and NFL athletes or they would have no room for news in the sports section. What do you suggest?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:30, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Neither. I'm suggesting that especially given the way it's phrased the content seems to appear out of nowhere and be too fragmentary to be really useful. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • It is difficult to integrate it further because Howard's marital and parental details are not reliably sourced. I do not have content to offer regarding the Howard Blyden relationship. I'll keep digging and see if I can smooth out this content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use a consistent reference format
  • Newspapers without weblinks need pages
    • I have found at least a half dozen Chicago Sun-Times pages that I can access through my Chicago Public Library account. I have lost access to Newsbank which means I can not find
      • Stoda, Greg (1992-11-17). "U-M At Top Of The Polls". Detroit Free Press.
      • Larcom,Geoff (2000-10-19). "Former U-M assistant testifies in Martin case: Also, prosecutors issue two indictments of Martin's associates". Ann Arbor News (Michigan Live LLC).
      • "Text of the indictment". Ann Arbor News (Michigan Live LLC). 2002-03-22.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • All web sources need access dates
  • Is it absolutely necessary to rely so heavily on Sports Reference LLC?
  • Don't double periods in references
  • What makes realgm.com a reliable source?
  • Be consistent in italicizing or not italicizing ESPN. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • The acting bit is undue weight and is actually longer than the 2005-06 season info by about 50%. In 2005-06 the article says he has 40 hours of gametime, his three acting gigs were all cameos, maybe a total of less than 30 minutes.... Not sure about the conspicuous consumption lists but even with BLP, I don't think it's advisable to be posting the house address and floor number; Yes it's already out there but it's unnecessary and we don't need to help people who want to rob him or kidnap his kids for ransom YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 03:31, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The PR asked for a pop culture section. In the grand scheme of the article the pop culture section is not overblown. If you want more on the 05-06 season, i could troll through each article that mentions his name in the Chicago Tribune news archive. Not sure anything encyclopedic will come up. It seems to be a non-event season where he just happened to start. Chopping a miniscule pop culture section seems wrong. I have removed the floor number.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Second nom from this nominator today: was this a special sanction? Brianboulton (talk) 07:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am only a co-nom on one.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • While you are technically within the rules, I find it in incredibly poor taste, Tony, that you would nominate two articles, about similar topics, on the same day. Please note also that my promotion/archival schedule is completely independent from the Wikicup (and Sandy has recused from your nominations, so you're stuck with me!), and I will not look favorably on requests on my talk page to adhere to the Wikicup schedule. Karanacs (talk) 14:50, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The topics are not that similar. I contacted past reviewers of the two college football season FAs and the four FAs of basketball players who played in the NBA overlapping with Howard and found noone overlap among reviewers. Regarding Sandy's recusal, she is prominently involved in both discussions already.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose The prose is pretty awkward in places. See if you can find someone to help you with a good copy-edit. Here are some examples:

    • Finetooth (talk · contribs) had copyedited this recently and was a co-nom at FAC1. I am willing to respond to problems. Don't know why finetooth withdrew from this nom.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • On October 3, I said here, "I haven't been watching. I don't want to be a co-nom if you re-nominate. I've done about all I can with the article, and I don't want to work on it any more." You added me as a co-nom on October 6, and when I noticed that, I deleted my name. The Juwan Howard article would not be back here so soon if not for the artificial pressure of the WikiCup. It's not a good idea to pressure the reviewers in order to win a game. Finetooth (talk) 19:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't watch that talk page so I missed your comment. If you had pinged my primary talk (User talk:TonyTheTiger, I would have seen it. Sorry about the confusion. I don't mean to pressure the reviewers. I am just attempting to push the article along and get feedback where possible.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Apology accepted. Might I suggest a simpler sig with fewer clickable options? I see now that "T" means talk and that I must have clicked on "Bio" and then "Discussion" to get to the other talk page, but I did not see that before and have gotten lost in your sig more than once. Finetooth (talk)
  • "Howard attended Chicago Vocational Career Academy, where he was named a 1991 All-American basketball player by Parade magazine and won McDonald's All American honors in a national tournament for boys and girls excelling in basketball."
  • "In the final days before his senior season decision on where to play college basketball"
  • "The day before the game, Howard endured dehydration from stomach cramps and a fever that necessitated that he receive fluids and that exempted him from mandatory media meetings."
  • "By the time of his sixth season, Howard had become unpopular in Washington as a bit of a disappointment, according to a journalist from the Chicago Tribune."

Other thoughts:

  • "In November 2003, Mitch Albom released his book Fab five: basketball, trash talk, the American dream chronicling the recruiting of and first two years of play of the Fab Five." random trivia
  • The Rob Pelinka stuff is trivia.
  • There's a lot of extraneous information in here, this is but one example:"Michael Jordan, who had become part-owner of the team, traded Howard, Obinna Ekezie, and Calvin Booth to the Dallas Mavericks for Laettner, Loy Vaught, Etan Thomas, Hubert Davis, Courtney Alexander and $3 million on February 22, 2001, at the NBA trade deadline." Do we really need to know every consideration of the deal? Just find who the two main players were (Laettner and Howard iirc and say "Michael Jordan, who had become part-owner of the team, traded Howard and several teammates were to Dallas for a package centering around Christian Laeetner." or just "Michael Jordan, who had become part-owner of the team, traded Howard was traded in a package deal to Dallas."
    • Actually, it is pretty standard to give complete trade details in a bio article, AFAIK. The information is considered encyclopedic content to be WP:PRESERVEd, from what I understand and my past experience.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, this might be idiosyncratic but I think some of the info in the high school section is redundant. We get that he was highly recruited player so after a while it becomes a little monotonous. The prose is the biggest problem though. I'd help you but I'm not that fantastic a writer myself. Quadzilla99 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dincher comments
Lead

  1. why just one reference in the lead. I favor more or none.
    Generally, this was an attempt at an uncited WP:LEAD. However, due to the wide-ranging nature of the University of Michigan basketball scandal and the common misperception that all of his seasons were wiped out, I felt that this one citation was necessary for the LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    fair enough. Dincher (talk) 21:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Although most Michigan Wolverines men's basketball records and accomplishments from 1992 to 1998 have been forfeited because of NCAA sanctions stemming from the University of Michigan basketball scandal, Howard's 1993–94 All-American season accomplishment has not. extremely long sentence, should be fixed.
    Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. After one season as an All-Rookie player and a second as an All-NBA performer, he became the first NBA player to sign a $100 million contract. Although he continued to be a productive starter, he never again performed at an All-Star level. ditto.
  4. In 2010, he is entering his 17th NBA season, including five during which his team reached the playoffs. I don't see the need for including his years in the playoss. Seems like he's played for some lousy teams.
    Basically, the lead is attempting to summarize his individual and team accomplishments. Saying, "he's played for some lousy teams", to use your words, is not so encyclopedic. However, Saying he played 17 years and only on five playoff teams serves the encyclopedic purpose.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that adding the word lousy to the article is not a good idea, what I am calling for is the exclusion of years in the playoffs. I don't think it's notable. Dincher (talk) 20:51, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The aggregate playoff performances of his teams is non-notable. However, in terms of an athlete's bio, playoff performance is defining, whether it is flattering or not.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:29, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. During his NBA career, he has developed a reputation as a humanitarian for his civic commitment. of course it's happened during his NBA career, he's still playing and before that he as a kid.
    Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Overview

  1. which recognizes achievements in scholarship, leadership, service, and character. a click on National Honor Society would tell the reader this, no need to include it here.
    removed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Howard was brought up by his maternal grandmother, Jannie Mae Howard, who adopted him and who died a few hours after he announced that he would attend Michigan. jumbled mess
  3. By his sophomore year - redundant, the title of the section is sophmore year.
    O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:46, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I am stopping here and opposing. I hate opposing work, but this article seems like it should be in peer review and not at FAC. Dincher (talk) 01:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments - I was asked to review this by Tony. I quickly read the whole article and am slowly working my way through a detailed review of it, so my comments will come in sections.

  • Lead Looking at the infobox and table of contents, I think the lead should mention that he has played for 8 different NBA teams as of 2010. While I don't think all 8 need to be named in the lead, Houston is named in a section header and should probably be mentioned in the lead. I may have more to say about the lead once I have reviewed the rest of the article.
  • Early life is almost entirely about his high school career, so would a better section title be something like "Early life and high school"?
  • Overview If the section title is changed as suggested (or to something similar) I am not sure this subsection needs a title (but am OK with the title as is).
  • I find the organization here a little puzzling - why not start with his birth and adoption by his grandmother and proceed chronologically? If so I would rearrange it as something like this:
Howard's single mother was 17 when he was born and did not want to raise her child. Howard was brought up by his maternal grandmother, Jannie Mae Howard, who adopted him. He grew up in a three-bedroom apartment on 69th Street on the South Side of Chicago.[5] His biological father, Leroy Watson, Jr., wanted to name him Howard Leroy III, but his grandmother decided otherwise.[4]
Howard attended Chicago Vocational Career Academy, where he was named a 1991 All-American basketball player by Parade magazine and won McDonald's All American honors. He was also chosen for the National Honor Society, which recognizes achievements in scholarship, leadership, service, and character.[2][3][4] During recruiting visits by college coaches such as Lou Henson, Joey Meyer and Fisher, Jannie Mae Howard did most of the questioning.[4] His grandmother died a few hours after he announced that he would attend Michigan. After her fatal heart attack, Howard moved in with his high-school coach, Richard Cook.[4] Howard has no siblings and is not close to his biological parents.[6]
  • Sophomore year I find it odd that there are no stats on his play or his team's performance in his sophomore year. What was his team's record? Did they win any sort of championship? How many points / rebounds/ whatever on average did Howard have that year? How often did he play (every game?)

More to come, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:24, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments from Ruhrfsich

  • Sophomore year - I think it would help to add his age and the year at the start of his sophomore year (15?) to help provide context to [At the start of his sophomore year in 1988], Howard was [15 years old, and] already expected to be a 1991 blue chip recruit, highly prized by college basketball coaches.[7]
  • I really don't get the whole basketball shoes at training camp incident. Was he accused of theft? Or was it one of these weird "these are amateur athletes so we can only give them one free pair of shoes" or they become paid professionals and ineligible for college scholarships things?
    • I think this case is a combination of the two things. However, I can find no secondary source saying that giving abundant free clothing constitutes payment of goods and services.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:35, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking more at the whole Early life and high school section, there are several mentions of other basketball players that seem like they could use much more clarification.
    • Howard attended other camps that summer and had a goal of surpassing Deon Thomas, who was the reigning Chicago Tribune basketball player of the year,[15] as the best big man in the state.[13] Although Thomas is linked, the link did not make it super clear to me what Thomas was doing at this time in Howard's career. It would help to say where Deon was at this point - my guess is he was either a HS senior or more likely a college freshman.
    • Even less info is given on Kelinschmidt (not even an article on him here to link) As Howard and Tom Kleinschmidt entered their junior years, some sources listed Kleinschmidt as the number one junior in the state.[17] I would add Kleinschmidt's high school and position played.
    • So when Junior year starts, Kleinschmidt is the competition, then it is Glenn Robinson (whose city is given, but not his position). What happened to make this change?
  • If I have read it right, there is only one game mentioned in his whole high school career He had a sub-par performance against King High School in the Chicago Public School League semifinals,[23]... and even there we do not know if his team won or lost. For an article on a player, it seems very odd to have so little information on how he did in high school. There is also some information on how he did in the McDoanld's All Star game as a senior, but that is not one of his high school team's games.
  • Playing stats are only given for his senior year in high school - can they be given for his junior and sophomore years?
  • Is anything known about where he learned basketball? Playground, YMCA, Boys Club, grade school?
  • Article is inconsistent on Parade magazine (italics or not) and should probably link it. Similarly the McDonald's All Star game could be linked.

This is looking pretty rough for FAC. More comments to come. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have struck the items addressed, but there have been no comments on what I consider the most important issues I raised. I am not going to do any more reviewing until some responses on my concerns are made. It has been over three days since I first asked why there were so few specifics on his actual play in high school. Could I have some answers please? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Two issues are at work here. 1.) He never really won any important (State championship level) games in high school. 2.) He had no monster games that stuck out in newbank blurbs. In almost all cases where I chronicle specific high school games for an athlete bio, it involves state championship level competition. Writing about lower level competition is not so encyclopedic except in terms of merely chronicling his schedule of play. Although many better writers than I exist, for sports bios I tend to write some of the most extensive high school sections you will find. City league playoff games are not tremendously important in the grand scheme of world class athlete bios, IMO. Basically, when I write these articles I look at article blurbs for monster games and otherwise try to find important post season performances. I may be able to find some Public School League performances if I trolled through the Trib archive again or went back to newsbank. The feedback that I am getting so far is that this article is going to need more hands on deck to get to FA and my time is pretty divided up trying to get things converted into WP:CUP points. I appreciate your time and sort of feel that you and I could spend our time better elsewhere right now. You are right to stop further review.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the reply. My thought is that there has to be some more material somewhere - perhaps not on specific games, but overall stats or soemthing more specific. If he was being discussed as a top college prospect as a 15 year old, and being invited to ABCD camp, it just seems like there should be something somewhere that says why. My guess is that an article saying he was given an honor (named to a team or invited to play in a particular game) would probably be a good place to look for this kind of information. Something like "Howard, who was named to the __________ team has had an avearge of X points, Y rebounds, and Z assists per game in this, only his sophomore season." Since it sounds like you are giving up on the article for now, I will switch to oppose - sorry. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - see above, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note, I have recused from closing TonyTheTiger's noms, and Karanacs has been offline for some time. This FAC doesn't look like it's going to make it, and the comments above seem to indicate that TTT is no longer actively working on it-- if TTT requests it, I can archive it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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