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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joel Selwood/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:23, 9 August 2009 [1].

Joel Selwood edit

Nominator(s): Aaroncrick talk and Boomtish (talk) 05:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

This is my first attempt at the FA process, so any help would be greatly appreciated. The article has been greatly improved from its GAN a while back and I believe this meets the FA criteria. It recently underwent a peer review and seeing there are no FA's on Australian Football League topics it would be great to base other AFL articles on this one. Aaroncrick (talk) 05:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Done; thanks. Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 06:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

YM fixed this. Aaroncrick (talk) 08:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comment: I assisted in the peer review process, and agree that the article has improved markedly from its GAN format. I would love to see this make FA as the first AFL article. One thing I've noticed, however, which I obviously missed at PR: the final paragraph of the lead is a bit too detailed in regard to Selwood's commercial activities, and contains rather more information on this topic than is within the main article. The opposite should be the case, with the lead briefly summarising the article's detailed contents. I wonder if some transfer of material could be made to remedy this? Subject to this, plus a final read-through and validation of images and sources, I'd say the article looks strong, and I'd be happy to support. Brianboulton (talk) 09:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Don't worry it wasn't there when you did the PR. I've started trimming it down. Aaroncrick (talk) 09:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well I've restored the old revision and tweaked those areas. Aaroncrick (talk) 09:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, I've just noticed that a couple of dablinks need fixing, and there's one dead link. Brianboulton (talk) 10:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link seems to have perished today. I'll look for another. Aaroncrick (talk) 10:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll give it a while although it seems as if "Selwood has stated his career intention to work really hard on the basics. Despite admitting not (being) the fastest player, or most skillful", will have to be removed as I can't find another source. Hopefully something will pop up or the link starts to work again. Maybe another AFL fan with a book might have something. I've also emailed the Bendigo Advertiser but I'm not expecting a reply or anything to happen. Aaroncrick (talk) 10:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed the two dablinks as they don't have a relevant articles on wikipedia. Aaroncrick (talk) 11:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: If The Advertiser story also appeared in the print edition, and not just online, then there's no need to remove it as a source; the url is just a courtesy link in that case. Steve T • C 19:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • Joel was forced to wear splints on his leg to help overcome a walking disability.[3] - You have linked the incorrect article at shin splints, please check that.
  • Thanks, Ceranthor, I'll have a look through. Aaroncrick (talk) 21:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Selwood displayed his talents as an athlete from an early age. - displayed talent...
  • and had kicked three goals as a half forward.[3] - I might be wrong, but shouldn't it be scored three goals?
  • I would like to keep this as is rare that Selwood every plays half-foward. The only positions I've really ever seen him play are midfield positions. Aaroncrick (talk) 21:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC) Sorry, I now think it's non notable as he was only 8. I removed it. Aaroncrick (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Selwood played his junior football with the Sandhurst Football Club - remove his
More later, ceranthor 12:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What section is this in? As I can't seem to find it. Aaroncrick (talk) 21:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Boomtish (talk) 15:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Noted. Link died yesterday unfortunately. Aaroncrick (talk) 21:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Updated the link as it moved to a new page. Aaroncrick (talk) 07:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well I removed the links altogether.... Aaroncrick (talk) 06:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I did so. Mustn't have saved properly, removed now in any case. Aaroncrick (talk) 02:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
swaps between using his first name or surname in the article specifically in the section Early Life
Removed use of first name within article body, and replaced with surname for consistency. Boomtish (talk) 15:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Honours section - Other Achievements are these really notable achievements, unlike the other two subsection this list doesnt indicate when the achievement occurred.
I would argue yes, they are. These achievements are notable historical achievements. They are not merely season relevant, but achievements on a larger scale (the Australian Football League's history etc). Boomtish (talk) 15:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Youngest premiership player since 1993 (19 years, 126 days) realy this more a commentator line rather than an achievement, also none of the ones in this list say when it occured . Gnangarra 15:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Since removed the premiership achievement, and date-stamped others. Boomtish (talk) 16:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This two points are items that stand out and need to/can be addressed. What really hits as an issue is that Selwood is only 21yrs old playing in his third season for a total of just 61 games, just starting out as a player. Is this really going to be a stable article that we can tag as our best work, will it not be back at WP:FAR in 2 months? All things being normal this person has at least 7 years of his playing career to go though more likely it'll exceed 10 years, during that time he'll add another 200 possibly even as many 300 games. Gnangarra 05:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fair point, there are obviously going to be additional edits made still. But I would argue that this hurdle didn't stop other articles from being presented with FA status. See Karmichael Hunt and Kevin Pieterson articles; both are similarly young athletes with the majority of their career still in front of them. Boomtish (talk) 15:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The stability criterion relates more to edit wars than to updates that are required over time. Are no active athletes/singers/movie stars/politicians to even be considered at FAC? I remember John McCain passing FAC last year, in the months before the election. If that can become featured, surely an article on an athlete is a viable candidate. Giants2008 (17–14) 01:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Gnangarra makes a fair point but I know of many FA on sports personalities. You can add Paul Collingwood to that list. I think Ian Thorpe was a FA when still competitive. Aaroncrick (talk) 01:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments – Actually, I believe Aaron was here once before, with a stadium article that had some problems and wound up failing. Nice to see the nominator back at FAC. I assume you've been working with Boomtish, the nominator at the first Selwood FAC?
  • Your infact right. Forgot all about that, good memory! :) I don't think I was too familiar with FAC/FAR processes back then. Aaroncrick (talk)
  • The first sentence of the lead's third paragraph feels like it's jamming too much into a single sentence. Either chop it or add

"and" before "becoming" to simply improve the flow.

  • Early life: "with his performances in the championship games earning him end-of-year All-Australian honours and the Most Valuable Player award for Victoria Country." The with+-ing sentence structure is often clumsy, and the sentence is overlong to begin with. Again, I recommend chopping it in two.
  • "in the annual under under-18s International Rules Series in Ireland." Are the two "under"s both supposed to be here?
  • "However, a knee injury occured only six rounds into the competition forced him to undergo surgery". Lacking a "that" after "competition"; "which" also works.
  • AFL career: What is the home and away period? Is that supposed to mean the regular season?
  • Yes, that's what It means. I'll change that so it's easier for non AFL followers. Aaroncrick (talk)
  • "with former Brisbane coach Leigh Matthews noting...". Another awkward structure.
  • From the beginning, Selwood showed an ability to influence games," Comma after this should be a semi-colon. It may seem picky, but proper punctuation is a vital part of compelling prose.
  • What is a disposal? A link should be provided for jargon like this. Also, the tackle link could be moved up.
  • A disposal is the same as a possession. There is no current article, but I may be able to scratch up a stub. Aaroncrick (talk) 01:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Coaching staff had a highlights package made of this performance". Should it be "The Geelong coaching staff..."?

A couple of these may have to do with my lack of AFL knowledge, but I'll have to come back for another round later. Giants2008 (17–14) 01:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Another hyphen needed for "18-year old".
  • Someone once told me that references should be placed inside dashes, not outside as is done normally with citations. Even though I don't understand why dashes should be treated differently from other punctuation marks, the Manual of Style should still be followed in featured articles.
  • Found one section where this is relevant, and fixed it. Reference is now inside the dash. Boomtish (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Punctuation fix needed after "Club champion award".
  • 2008: "Selwood also polled 19 votes in the Brownlow Medal". Sounds like a person is polling votes in a prize, instead of a vote count. Is this used often in Australia? There are a couple of other similar sentences before and after this one.
  • I belive the term "polling" is used regularly in regards to these awards. Nonetheless, made some adjustments. Let me know if this is better. Boomtish (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "citing 'club success and future opportunities' as his reason for accepting the reduced salary." That's actually two reasons, not one.
  • 2009: Capitalize Grand Final and change "ending" to "ended" in the second sentence.
  • Is there normally a space in "per cent" in Australia? Us Americans need to check these things.
  • Not sure, but changed all to "percent". Boomtish (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • En dash for 1999-2001.
  • Personal life: Remove comma after Maree in the third sentence. It has no reason to be there.
  • Check capitalization of Organisation and Seeing Eye Dogs (not the one in the charity name). Also grammar fix needed for "who are being trained as a Seeing Eye Dogs".
  • "and cites the clubs own Hall of Fame member Gary Abbet as a childhood idol". Apostrophe needed in "club's".
  • Period after "childhood friends". How two nominators and a great copy-editor missed that one, I will never know, but it needs fixing to make for a professional look. These errors cause me the most concern, as they always leave me wondering if I missed something elsewhere.
  • Single-page references should be presented as p. and not pp.
  • Personally, I don't think Selwood's first name is needed in the last two photo captions. The one in the infobox is fine for identification purposes, but it's a bit much to have them in all three. Also, I keep hearing that names shouldn't be in alt text, although I'm no expert on the subject. Giants2008 (17–14) 00:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed use of first name in captions. Also removed use of name in alt text and replaced with "young male athlete". Boomtish (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - The three images in the article looked good, though one had to be moved to commons. I have done that for you, but could you take care of it next time? Thanks :) NW (Talk) 15:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support WRT Cr. 1a.

  • Some readers might be irritated to find that "inside" and "outside" (both epithets separately linked) go to the same place. Perhaps make it a single link of three words?
  • Is "winning percentage" a couplet in that large noun? If so, it might help unfamiliar readers to hyphenate the two words.
  • "currently holds"—violates the MoS "vague chronological terms" guidelines, I think it is. "As of 2009"? This should also do for the claim at the end of that sentence.
  • Infobox: could you pipe link "2006 draft", the second word to clarify that it's not a plain year article?
  • Why is "sportspeople" linked? Same for "runner" and "tennis"—these unnecessarily dilute the high-value links in the vicinity.
  • Removed them. Boomtish (talk) 13:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't mind "kicked three goals" (someone above had qualms).
    • I don't think this was changed in the end. Boomtish (talk) 13:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You wouldn't consider swapping the "leaves the ground" pic with the one in the infobox? I think the former is better, without the effects of the mouthguard. Or perhaps it's too narrow for an infobox ...
  • "instant success" as a pipe for "child prodigy"? Both the linked article and the pipe are inappropriate, I think.
  • "resulted in him becoming"—the old noun +-ing issue. Consider "his becoming"; and, oh look, the last exercise seems to have exactly this wording. And hyphen for "first-year player". Some would hyphenate "debut-year achievements", but I could live without that hyphen if you're more comfortable without it.
  • I've recast the "not (being) the ..." quote. Square brackets were required, anyway. Tony (talk) 11:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS Any reason the piped years are italicised in the table? Straighter, easier-to-read, more authoritative as plain roman face, I think. Tony (talk) 11:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks, and fixed the table issues. Boomtish (talk) 13:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support: My comments at the start of this review have been adequately answered, and there have been some useful tweaks since. I think the article now meets the FA criteria. I've been following it since the early stages of its peer review, and it has developed wonderfully well – and given me some insight into the mysterious lingo of Australian football. It's always good to see the FA range expanding, so I really hope this makes it. Brianboulton (talk) 14:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, however, why are only the initials displayed in the notes? That seems odd. Also, I think the wording about winning a premiership medal can be confusing and roundabout, as people may not know that only people who play in the grand final get one, whereas the guy might win the Brownlow and kick the most goals and then break their leg in the second last match and not get a medal. I think Tony Modra was teh top goal kicker for the crows in one year and got injured in the prelim f and didn't get a medal when they won the final. It's easier to simply say "youngest person to play in a grand final winning team" or seomthing YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – There were a few issues remaining after my review, which I fixed myself to expedite things. The article has seen substantial improvements since the previous FAC and looks FA-worthy now. Be sure to keep it up-to-date as his career progresses. Giants2008 (17–14) 03:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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