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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jews in Hong Kong/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 6 April 2022 [1].

Jews in Hong Kong edit

Nominator(s): — Golden call me maybe? 12:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Jewish community of Hong Kong, although small, has played a great role in the development and history of the city. Taking root from two wealthy Baghdadi trader families of Sassoon and Kadoorie, the Jewish community experienced several waves of growth. As of 2019, there are about 5,000 Jews of different denominations living in Hong Kong.

I rewrote this article a month and a half ago. It was reviewed and passed as a Good Article two weeks ago and also as a Did You Know a month ago. Since then, the article has also been copyedited and I believe it may now meet the FA criteria. — Golden call me maybe? 12:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments edit

  • The following works are cited in the "Literature" section, but never used in the prose:
    • Chasin, Stephanie (2008). Citizens of empire: Jews in the service of the British Empire, 1906–1940. University of California Press.
    • Pluss, Caroline B. (1999). The social history of the Jews of Hong Kong: a resource guide. The Jewish Historical Society of Hong Kong. ISBN 978-9-6285-3391-6.
  • Following are p./pp. errors:
    • "Ehrlich 2008, pp. 1186." : should be p.
    • "Carroll 2009, p. 74, 79." : should be pp.
    • "Ehrlich 2008, p. 1172, 1187" : should be pp.
    • "Tigay 1994, p. 209, 211." : should be pp.
    • "Gilman 2014, p. 99, 111." : should be pp.

– Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 12:56, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Sir_Matthew_Nathan.jpg needs a US tag and information on first publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • When and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • State Library of Queensland doesn't give any information about the author. Here they state that the original version is a photographic print from 1920, so I believe that's the first publication date. — Golden call me maybe? 07:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately 1920 appears to have been the creation date rather than confirmed as a publication date. Also if the author is unknown we can't claim life+70 - a photo from 1920 could easily have been created by someone who died after 1952. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've replaced the image of Matthew Nathan with a picture of Nathan road as State Library of Queensland doesn't give the required information about the picture. — Golden call me maybe? 14:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from a455bcd9 edit

  • Jews are one of the oldest communities in Hong Kong: what's the source for the opening sentence?
  • A permanent Jewish community formed in Hong Kong in the 1850s.: do we know how many Jews were in HK at that time?
  • The social life of the community revolved around the homes of the wealthy Sephardic families of Sassoon and Kadoorie: first time the Kadoorie family is mentioned in the article (outside the lede), shouldn't we describe who they are?
  • which encouraged the influx of new Baghdadi and Mumbai Jews to Hong Kong: any numbers available?
  • Wealthy Sephardim distanced themselves from the predominantly poor Ashkenazi.: first time the word "Sephardim" is used, should probably linked and/or explain that early Jewish migrants were Sephardic.
  • Under his governance [...] the main street of Kowloon was named Nathan Road in his honour.: Could link to Nathan Road. The street was renamed in 1909, so not "under his governance"
  • In 1911, the Jewish population of Hong Kong reached 230 people. From the early 1920s to the mid-1930s, the number of the Jewish community did not exceed 100 people.: This is weird, what explains the decline?
  • In the first half of the 20th century: Shouldn't this paragraph be moved before the one about WWII to follow a chronological order?
  • Another family of Baghdad Jews, the Kadoorie, successfully competed with the Sassoon family.: this sentence should be moved at the beginning when the Kadoorie family is first mentioned
  • There were 250 Jews in Hong Kong (half Sephardi, half Ashkenazi) in 1954. The number dropped to 230 in 1959 and further to 200 in 1968 (130 Ashkenazi and 70 Sephardi). In 1974, according to the lists of the Ohel Leah Synagogue and the Jewish Club, there were about 450 local Jews living in Hong Kong.: do we have an explanation for these variations? Where did the ones who left go? Where did the ones who arrived come from?
  • About 5,000 Jews lived in Hong Kong in 2010 [...] some 2,500 Jews lived in Hong Kong in 2015.: why such a difference in 5 years?
  • Unlike other parts of China, where the Jewish community is prohibited from holding religious festivals: I'm surprised, because I can find other sources about the Jewish life in Mainland China or Chabad Beijing.
  • The population of the colony was very fluid, and therefore the 16 oldest graves do not bear the names of those buried there, only identification numbers.: I don't understand this sentence
  • during the reign of the Jewish governor Matthew Nathan: should we say "reign" or "rule" for a governor?
  • the English-language press in Hong Kong has always been somewhat anti-Israel, which is explained by the general mood of the European press: this implies that the European press is anti-Israel, is that true and sourced?
  • This source isn't cited, why?
  • May be good to add a table with the evolution of the Jewish population

A455bcd9 (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@A455bcd9: Thank you for taking your time to review the article:
  • 1. Goldstein, Jonathan; Schwartz, Benjamin I. (2015). The Jews of China: Historical and Comparative Perspectives. p.171. Quote: "Jews in Hong Kong followed a similar evolution. Jews were among the first settlers in the 1840s.."
Per MOS:LEAD: "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.". So you should add this information in the article and correctly source it. Also, according to History of Hong Kong: "The region of Hong Kong has been inhabited since the Old Stone Age" so Jews were definitely not "one of the oldest communities in Hong Kong". May be better to follow the source and say that Jews were among the first settlers after Hong Kong became a British colony in 1841.. A455bcd9 (talk)
Done! — Golden call me maybe?
  • 2. Unfortunately none of the sources present a number for the 1850s. Goldstein and Schwartz only generally mentions that the "Jewish community began to develop from the mid-1850s", while Tigay writes that "the community was organized in 1857.."
  • 3. Done!
You wrote "another family of Baghdad Jews", but I think you should say that the Sassoon were from Baghdad. Otherwise it's weird. A455bcd9 (talk)
I'm sorry I don't really understand what you mean. Do you mean that I should inform the readers that both of the families are Baghdad Jews rather than only writing it for the Kadoorie? — Golden call me maybe?
  • 4. Neither Gilman nor Tigay (two sources used for the sentence) give a number.
  • 5. The first paragraph of the History section already indicates that the first settlers (the Sassoon family) were Sephardic. It's also made clear that the first Jewish residents were Sephardic with the sentence before the Ashkenazi Jews are mentioned: "In 1882, there were about 60 Sephardic Jews living in Hong Kong."
Indeed, thanks. By the way, are Baghdadi Jews Sephardic or Mizrahi? (Wikipedia says: "The term "Sephardim", from Hebrew Sefarad (“Spain”), also sometimes refers to Mizrahi Jews (Eastern Jewish communities) of Western Asia and North Africa. Although the millennia-long established latter groups did not originally have ancestry from the Jewish communities of Iberia") A455bcd9 (talk)
Both. They are a diverse group and include Mizrahi and Sephardim Jews. Here is a quote from the Baghdadi Jews article: Within these Baghdadi communities, the majority were of Iraqi Jewish origin, but families from Syria, [...] and a handful of Sephardic Jews [...] joined and assimilated into the Baghdadi community. — Golden call me maybe?
  • 6. Fixed!
  • 7. The explanation is provided right after those sentences: "During this period, there was an outflow of Jewish businessmen to the rapidly developing Shanghai". I've moved the sentence's place to make it easier to understand.
I would make things even clearer, for instance: In 1911, the Jewish population of Hong Kong reached 230 people. From the early 1920s to the mid-1930s, there was an outflow of Jewish businessmen to the rapidly developing Shanghai and the number of the Jewish community dropped below 100 people.
Done! — Golden call me maybe?
  • 8. Done!
  • 9. Done!
  • 10. The source for the numbers, Encyclopaedia Judaica, doesn't give any explanation for the fluctuation of the number.
  • 11. Unfortunately no explanation for the decline in the sources.
So most likely one source is wrong. I would merge the two sentences and add the source for the first figure: "According to X, about 5,000 Jews lived in Hong Kong in 2010; while According to the World Jewish Congress, some 2,500 Jews lived in Hong Kong in 2015." A455bcd9 (talk)
Done! — Golden call me maybe?
  • 12. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency source you provided is from 2003, while the source in the article is from 2016. I imagine the Jewish life in mainland China must have changed during this period.
Here are more recent sources: [2], [3], [4]. So there's a problem with the 2016 source I think. A455bcd9 (talk)
Thanks for the sources. I've removed the "Unlike other parts of China.." part of the sentence. — Golden call me maybe?
  • 13. The source for that sentence on Jewish Historical Society of Hong Kong website was hard for me to understand as well: "The Community was mostly without an official functionary and witness to the fact that the population was a transient one even then, sixteen of the oldest graves bear only a small, numbered marker, with no name". I've deleted the first half of the sentence now to only include the part about the sixteen graves.
  • 14. Changed to "rule" since "reign" doesn't sound quite right.
  • 15. The source describes the anti-Israeli mood of European press as follows: "[...] the local English-language press maintains a low-grade anti-Israeli stance. However, this may not be conscious editorial policy because most of their published stories relating to Israel are taken from the wire services [...] Thus, the biases in reporting seem to stem from the writers for the Western wire services." I've changed the sentence to better represent its source.
  • 16. That source is used several times in the article. You can find it as reference #49 under the References section.
In that case the author is incorrect, it should be "Miriam Herschlag", and the publisher (or editor) should be "American Jewish Committee": Herschlag, Miriam. “Hong Kong.” The American Jewish Year Book, vol. 98, American Jewish Committee, 1998, pp. 375–85, http://www.jstor.org/stable/23605409. A455bcd9 (talk)
Fixed! — Golden call me maybe?
  • 17. I did initially want to add a table, but in several cases the numbers are given for a general time period rather than a specific year (e.g. "By the beginning of the 20th century, 165 Jews officially lived in Hong Kong..") and almost all known numbers are estimates. — Golden call me maybe? 21:34, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I still think a table could be useful. A455bcd9 (talk)
Added to the 21st century section. — Golden call me maybe?
Thanks a lot! I'm happy your changes have addressed my concerns. I'm glad to support the article. A455bcd9 (talk) 11:35, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Some additional sources on the number of Jews in HK:
  • Our Community: "The Jewish community’s population, as of 2015, is estimated to be approximately 5,000 and is comprised of mainly expatriates originating from countries that include the UK, US, France, Australia, South Africa, Israel and Canada who worship in five congregations." (2015)
  • Religion and Custom: "The site adjoining the Ohel Leah Synagogue, now containing a residential complex, also houses the Jewish Community Centre which serves all three congregations. The centre offers its 400 member families supervised kosher dining and banqueting, cultural and recreational facilities and operates a fully kosher supermarket, a wide range of activities and classes, as well as a specialist library covering all aspects of Judaica." (2016, three congregations)
  • Why most Jews in Hong Kong are not involved with the protests: "Hong Kong, a one-time British colony now controlled by China and given limited autonomy, is home to some 5,000 Jews and a number of Jewish institutions." (2019)
  • Hong Kong and the Jews: 6 Facts: "Today, over 5,000 Jews call Hong Kong home." (2019)
  • Hong Kong Virtual Jewish History Tour: "The Hong Kong Jewish community experienced rapid growth as Hong Kong prospered, and the population now numbers between three and four thousand" (2020?)
  • SYNAGOGUE HISTORY: "Kehilat Zion currently boasts more than 900 members." (2020, one community only) A455bcd9 (talk) 13:33, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the sources! I've added about the conflicting reports for 2015 and added the 5,000 number for 2019. — Golden call me maybe? 13:52, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. As you already cite in the article the "Hong Kong Virtual Jewish History Tour" it may be worth adding their estimate as well ("3,000-4,000"). They cite "Jonathan Kaufman, “A Jewish Dynasty in a Changing China,” Wall Street Journal, (May 28, 2020)." So I assume the page is up-to-date as of 2020. (even though it was showing the same estimate in Feb 2017, but we can assume the # didn't change much between 2017 and 2020). A455bcd9 (talk) 14:50, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Jonathan Kaufman source makes no mention of the "3,000-4,000" number. The actual source seems to be Encyclopaedia Judaica, p.518: By the mid-1990s the Hong Kong community was substantial in size. Its population was estimated at 3,000–4,000 in the mid-1990s and at about 3,000 in 2004. I added the 2004 number to the table. — Golden call me maybe? 15:07, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So I would add "3,000–4,000" in "~1995" then (based on Encyclopaedia Judaica). But I think "3,000–4,000" can be added based on "Hong Kong Virtual Jewish History Tour" for "today". And my point was that we can use "2020" for "today" as "Hong Kong Virtual Jewish History Tour" cites a source from 2020 (I didn't mean that the Kaufman source made mention of the 3k-4k figure). A455bcd9 (talk) 15:35, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done! — Golden call me maybe? 15:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note edit

This has been open for nearly four weeks and has picked up just the single general support. Unless it attracts further attention over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Kavyansh edit

Oppose on WP:FA?#1c and WP:FA?#2c, due to the following issues:

  • Source formatting and reliability:
  • Spot-checking:
    • "Among other members of the Jewish community in Hong Kong, the Dutch Jew Charles Henry Bosman (1839–1892) stood out. He was the head of the Bosman and Co. trading house, co-owner of the city's first luxury hotel, and director of the Hong Kong and Whampoa Dock, which was founded in 1863 by Scottish businessman Thomas Sutherland. By 1869, Charles Bosman was the Dutch consul in Hong Kong and ran his own marine insurance company, whose clients included the colony's largest group, Jardine Matheson & Co. Later, Charles Bosman moved to Great Britain and received British citizenship in 1888. He died in London in 1892.":
      • Focusing just on verifiability, of the two sources cited, one names him "Charles Henri Maurice BOSMAN". Even the other one names him "Charles Henri Maurice BOSMAN", but a comment (by a reader) states that "the gravestone inscription reads Henry rather than Henri" ([5]). Why do we write him as "Henry"?
      • Where is it mentioned that he "stood out" among other members of the Jew community?
      • Where is it mentioned that Hongkong Hotel was "city's first luxury hotel"? All the source mentions is that "He was part owner of the Hongkong Hotel in 1968 when it opened".
      • To be precise, "director of the Hong Kong and Whampoa Dock" should be "a director". Both the sources mention "a director", implying one of many directors.
      • Where is it mentioned that Hong Kong and Whampoa Dock was founded in 1863 by Scottish businessman Thomas Sutherland?? I find no mention of Sutherland or 1863 in any source.
      • Where is it mentioned that company's "clients included the colony's largest group" ? All the source mentions is that "one of whose important clients was Jardines". Isn't it WP:OR to assume that they were "colony's largest group"?
      • Source says "He later left for England, then became naturalised British citizen in 1888/89." If I am right, writing England as Great Britain is right (vice-versa is wrong), but we mention the year as 1888, while the source writes "1888/89".
  • "In 1951, Lawrence and Horace Kadoorie founded an association to help local Chinese farmers in the New Territories, and in 1956 established an experimental farm and botanical garden, which eventually developed into Hong Kong's leading research organisation in the field of ecology and agriculture." — I honestly don't find any of this supported by the source ([6]). Where in the source is 1951, Lawrence, them founding an association, and that becoming leading research organisation?
  • "James Meyer Sassoon: executive director of the Jardine Matheson Group, Director of Hongkong Land, Dairy Farm International Holdings, Mandarin Oriental Hotel Group and Jardine Lloyd Thompson, Chairman of the China-British Business Council"
    • Source ([7]) writes "Jardine Matheson Group Companies, Executive Director, 2013 - 2020". This is 2022, I'll assume he is no longer the "former" Executive director. Rest, most of this again is not mentioned in the source
  • Note: the above is not a full source review.

– Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment edit

I am afraid that the lack of indications of a consensus to promote mean that I am archiving this nomination.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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