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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/J. Havens Richards/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 29 August 2021 [1].

J. Havens Richards edit

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 23:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Jesuit whose journey to becoming the president of Georgetown University started with his secret baptism as an infant. He eventually became one of the most significant presidents in the university's history and helped to bring it into the modern age.

Support Comments from Modussiccandi edit

Lead

  • "Richards eventually entered the Society of Jesus" this bit feels somewhat redundant because we've just learnt that he "was an American Catholic priest and Jesuit".
    • Fair enough. I've removed it. Ergo Sum 01:02, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "such the completion of Healy Hall" you are missing an "as" here.
  • "high-caliber" the word somehow seems too colloquial. Also, it doesn't seem clear what exactly this means.
    • That's fair. I've removed it because I don't really think it makes sense it that context anyway. Ergo Sum 01:05, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "significantly bolstered the graduate programs" "significantly" can be left out, especially since you've already used the word in the lead.
  • "some proponents of which called for" is a mouthful; you could as well leave out the entire relative clause because I feel it's enough to know at this point that he "navigated tensions".
    • Removed it and added a brief mention that CUA is also in DC. Ergo Sum 01:05, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

  • I'm not sure the Harvard reference to Shea (1891) is formatted correctly. Could it be that the book is missing after Richards (1913)?
    • I'm not sure how that ref disappeared, but I've re-added it. Ergo Sum 01:20, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Henry Livingston was ostracized" consider replacing "ostracized" for accessibility's sake.
    • I know it's more or less a matter of opinion, but I don't know if it's that unusual a word. I can't really think of a one-word synonym that captures quite the same thing. Ergo Sum 01:20, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a result" doesn't feel strictly necessary.
    • I'm open to rephrasing but I think having some causal link between the ostracization and his abandoning ministry keeps the narrative flowing and is informative for the reader. Ergo Sum 01:20, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not convinced that the 'Ancestry' section is strictly necessary. Of course, it's always better to have more detail but I'm not sure the information in that section (particularly the second paragraph) adds much to the article. Now, I won't withhold support if you leave the section in; let's see what other reviewers think.
    • I can see the argument for trimming it down. I'd like to get some more input on how that should be dealt with. Ergo Sum 01:20, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Georgetown University

  • "Richards was made the rector and president of Georgetown University" this important bit comes quite abruptly. Is anything known about the circumstances?
    • Unfortunately not. The source is just as abrupt as the phrasing in that paragraph and I haven't been able to find any more detail from other sources. Ergo Sum 01:22, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "upon his instruction" I think it's clear from context that Richards was responsible for this.
  • "Richards succeeded in bringing prominent faculty from Europe onto the Georgetown faculty" are there notable examples who could be included with a wikilink?
    • I've added an example and rephrased to be more faithful to the source. Ergo Sum 01:29, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Graduate courses in the arts and sciences were re-established in 1889" can you give more context on when/why they had been abolished in the first place or were they moved to Woodstock too?
    • I'm not really sure. The source says that theology moved to Boston and then Woodstock because of the Civil War but doesn't explain why arts and sciences courses stopped. If I had to guess, I'd say it was because of the Civil War, but I can't say for sure. I checked the Curran source too and didn't find any specific mention of graduate A&S courses. Ergo Sum 01:40, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was the Catholic University of America also based in DC?
    • Yes, I've added a note of this. Ergo Sum 01:31, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Catholic University dropped its plans" do we need an article here and in the next sentence? (I'm unsure.)
    • While the official name of the school is "The Catholic University of America," it is quite often referred to simply as "Catholic University" (without the article) for short. Ergo Sum 01:31, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "John Gilmary Shea" it would be good to get a very brief introduction to this person (e. g. to say that he was an historian or such). The same is true for Elizabeth Wharton Drexel.

Pastoral work

  • "spiritual father" does this mean his job was only pastoral? Perhaps clarify.
    • I'm not entirely sure what the term means. I've just copied it from the source. I imagine it probably meant a kind of senior position in the institution that involved pastoral rather than administrative responsibilities, but it's a term that means different things in different contexts, so it is hard for me to give an answer. Ergo Sum 01:34, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Later years

  • "his first stroke" I think 'a stroke' would work as well because the second stroke is already marked as such.
  • "in the hospital" I'm not sure the article is needed though I'm admittedly shaky on these things.
    • This is very much a British vs. American English point. AmEng always uses the article when referring to a stay in the hospital, while BritEng always omits it. Ergo Sum 01:35, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Images

  • Am I right to assume that dates aren't available for the images where none is given?
    • Yes, any dates I was able to find have already been included on images. Ergo Sum 01:35, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's good to see another article in this series by you. Have a look at my comments, some of which are really more suggestions. I might have more when after you've addressed them. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 10:22, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, as always, for your input, Modussiccandi. Ergo Sum 01:40, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good stuff. I will support now, given that I was merely offering quibbles to a very good article. I'll be interested to see what (if anything at all) other reviewers say about the 'Ancestry' section. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • What is the benefit of including both the 1890 and the Healy Hall image?
    • I figured there were that many images of the subject to begin with, so I'd try to include whatever ones I could find. The two photos are pretty different, since one is a higher quality one of him standing in a studio, while the other is a more candid shot of him actually at the university. Ergo Sum 02:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hm. I would say the article is overillustrated for its length with several similar-looking images, and in particular with sandwiching between these two. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:51, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've removed the sketch of him and kept the two aforementioned. This should alleviate the sandwiching. Ergo Sum 16:59, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest improving alt text - no need for so much duplication between alt and caption
    • Improved the alt text. Ergo Sum 02:34, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:J._Havens_Richards_portrait_2.jpg: when and where was this first published? If the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
    • As with many images I uploaded in the past on this subject, I seem to have incorrectly tagged them. I've adjusted the tag accordingly. Ergo Sum 02:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Joseph_Havens_Richards_portrait.jpg: is the tagging on the basis that this was a work for hire, or is the date of death of the creator known?
    • I based it on the second bullet point of the template: unknown author death date + created before 1901. Ergo Sum 02:43, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Given that there is a studio listed though, could the author reasonably be identified? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:51, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • I did some digging and identified exactly who the author was (including death date). I've adjusted the license tags accordingly. I think they're right now, but that sort of thing has never been my forte. Ergo Sum 17:06, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:J._Havens_Richards_portrait.png: if the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Touché. I've corrected the tag. Ergo Sum 02:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Z1720 edit

Non-expert prose review.

  • "Henry Livingston Richards' name was sometimes spelled as Livingstone." per MOS:POSS, this should be Richards's
  • "Richards' father sought to send" same as above.
  • "He had an ambitious plan to transform Georgetown into a modern," I'm hesitant to have the word ambitious in wikivoice. Who said that this plan was ambitious?
    • I'm inclined to say that falls within the narrow band of editorializing permitted to enhance the prose of an article, but I suppose erring on the side of faithfulness to sources is best. Removed. Ergo Sum 23:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which had previously been removed to Boston and then to Woodstock College." -> "which had previously been moved to Boston, then Woodstock College."
  • "Richards sharply criticized the decision" Delete sharply
  • "The property of the medical school, which theretofore had been owned by its own legal corporation was transferred to the President and Directors of Georgetown College," Put a comma after corporation.
  • "Richards also worked with Bishop John Keane to address tensions" Delete also
  • "Richards' most immediate task" Richards's
  • "construction of which began in 1877 under Patrick F. Healy, but whose interior remained unfinished." delete this comma?
  • "He was able to have the bulk of the work complete" Did he do anything special to speed up this work, such as devote additional funds to it?
    • The source does not elaborate on this. Ergo Sum 23:49, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1893, James Jeffrey Roche, the editor of the Catholic Boston newspaper The Pilot, wrote Charles William Eliot, the president of Harvard University, about the fact that no..." Lots of commas here. Maybe, "James Jeffrey Roche, the editor of the Catholic Boston newspaper The Pilot, wrote to Charles William Eliot, the president of Harvard University, in 1893 about the fact that no..."
    • Unless I'm misreading this, those are the same sentence minus the year. I'm not sure that simplifies it that much. I've swapped some of the commas out for em dashes. That should simplify it somewhat. Ergo Sum 23:54, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " family in Boston due to news of his mother's death." -> "family in Boston after his mother's death."
  • "Richards then returned to Los Gatos in April" delete then, the reader knows this happened after his return to Boston so is redundant.
  • "Richards then returned to Los Gatos in April, where he remained until the summer of 1901, when he returned to Frederick, Maryland. There, he became minister of the novitiate." -> "Richards returned to Los Gatos in April. In the summer of 1901, he returned to Frederick, Maryland and became minister of the novitiate." This puts the Los Gatos activities in one sentence, and the Maryland activities in the other.
  • "With the relocation of the novitiate to St. Andrew-on-Hudson in Poughkeepsie, New York in January 1903, Richards followed as minister." -> "Richards moved to St. Andrew-on-Hudson in Poughkeepsie, New York, in January 1903 when the novitiate was relocated there." This allows the sentence to start with a noun, which is usually preferable to having the verb come before the noun.
    • I must disagree with the rule that sentences should start with a noun, but I do like your phrasing better here. Done. Ergo Sum 00:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't want to categorize it as a rule, as I can think of many examples of when a verb should go before the noun. Rather I am generalising a practice in English, a language with many exceptions to rules, guidelines, and practices. I thank you for thinking about my suggestions before deciding to accept just to garner my support, or reject in order to argue. I appreciate editors who bring conversations to FACs. Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the summer of 1903, he was instead made the procurator, and was in charge of the mission in Pleasant Valley." Why is instead here? Was he not a novitiate when he moved to Poughkeepsie?
    • This is to indicate that he basically switched jobs from minister to procurator. A novitiate is the actual institution, while a novice is one who attends the institution. But, no, he was not a novice. Indeed, as minister or procurator he would be roughly the equivalent of vice president of the institution. Ergo Sum 00:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Please correct me if I am wrong with this timeline: In summer 1901 Richards moved to Frederick and became a minister of the novitiate. In January 1903 the novitiate and Richards move to Hyde Park, New York, and Richards is still a minister of the novitiate. In summer 1903, Richards becomes a procurator, and is no longer a minister. If this timeline is correct, I am still confused as to why the text said he is "instead made a procurator" as this wording gives me the impression that he was not a minister after the novitiate moved to Hyde Park. Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • That timeline is correct. He was still minister after the novitiate moved for a few months before ceasing to hold that job and instead becoming procurator. Does that not come across in the currently wording? Ergo Sum 02:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • The timeline comes across, but I think "instead" is the wrong word to use in the quote cited in the first bullet point, "In the summer of 1903, he was instead made the procurator, and was in charge of the mission in Pleasant Valley." The current wording makes it sound like in the move to Hyde Park, he became a procurator right away instead of remaining as a minister for a time, which is incorrect. I think "instead" should be deleted from that sentence. Z1720 (talk) 14:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • That's fine. I've removed it. Ergo Sum 15:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He then transferred again to Boston College in the summer of 1906 as spiritual father, where he remained for a year." Delete then, delete again as these are redundant and assumed based on the preceding sentences.
    • Removed "then" but kept "again." I think it makes sense to keep it since the same section mentions that he was as Boston College not long before. Ergo Sum 00:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Richards then became operarius[b] of the Church of St. Ignatius Loyola in New York City." When did this happen?
    • Immediately after leaving Boston College. I have rephrased slightly to make this clearer. Ergo Sum 00:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the same time, he became pastor of the Church of St. Ignatius Loyola." -> "He concurrently became paster of the Church of St. Ignatius Loyola." It shortens the sentence and deletes a comma, which I think I have a personal vendetta against...but that's another discussion.
    • Done. (But tweaked slightly to avoid a split infinitive). Ergo Sum 00:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Being advanced in age, he was relieved of the position by the provincial superior on March 25, 1919," Was his old age cited as a reason he was relieved of the position? If so, this should be more explicit in the text.
    • I've taken another look at the source and I think the way I phrased it was a bit misleading. In a religious order, one cannot simply retire from a position to which they were assigned by a superior; they must be relieved by the provincial. But here, the source says he requested to be relieved because of his age and the provincial allowed it. So I've rephrased to retiring, which is really more accurate. Ergo Sum 00:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Following his positions in New York, " Delete, this is covered in the previous section and is redundant.
    • This would break of the temporal continuity because the section would begin with no frame of reference as to time. Ergo Sum 00:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my comments. Please ping when the above have been responded to. Z1720 (talk) 16:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Z1720. Ergo Sum 00:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some responses above. Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comments have been addressed. I support. Z1720 (talk) 15:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

All sources appear to be of appropriate quality, and the references and citations are appropriately formatted and used.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:42, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM edit

  • "in the same city" did you link the city itself yet?
  • Infobox/sucbox says 31st, is that cited?
    • 31 is not mentioned anywhere in the text, but the 2010 Curran source in the body supporting the proposition that he succeeded Doonan implicitly supports it because that page contains a list of the presidents, so it's just a matter of counting them. Ergo Sum 02:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Cowles' mother" I think our dreadful MOS says that ought to be Cowles's...
    • You are right. Dreadful it is. Ergo Sum 02:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to Jersey City, New Jersey in" comma after NJ.
  • "became a United States Representative from Ohio" my ignorance, but are representatives back then "from" somewhere or "for" somewhere?
    • Yes, that is the typical language. Even at this time, Ohio contained multiple congressional districts so he did not represent the whole state. Ergo Sum 02:17, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that partook in " -> that took part in
    • Any particular reason you suggest this change? Ergo Sum 02:18, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, my ignorance, but "and public schools in " were no public schools Catholic?
    • To my knowledge, no public schools in the US (below the tertiary level) have ever been officially associated with any religion. Ergo Sum 02:19, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "moved to Boston, Massachusetts with" comma after MA.
  • "the steel industry" steel is a common word, no need to link. There may be a better link like Iron and steel industry in the United States perhaps.
    • Adopted your suggestion. Ergo Sum 02:24, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The rest of his family joined them" them -> he and his father.
    • Done. I think because Richards and father are direct objects here, it would be "him and his father." Please correct me if I'm wrong. Ergo Sum 02:29, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "active in sports" bit easter egg, perhaps "active in college athletics"
    • I worry that phrasing might be a bit redundant. I've tweaked it to "school sports." Ergo Sum 02:37, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in Frederick, Maryland on" comma after Maryland.
  • "probationary period" is there a link?
    • The most appropriate link is Jesuit formation, which is linked earlier in the article. If you think it's worth linking again, I can do that. Ergo Sum 02:52, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • On second thought, I've gone ahead and linked it. Ergo Sum 03:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "did work in chemistry during his vacations" I don't know what this means.
    • I really am not sure either. I assume it means something along the lines of doing research in chemistry, but the source is very unclear on this. Ergo Sum 02:53, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "during his vacations.[5] During the summers" during/during is repetitive reading.
  • "be ordained after" link.
  • "to do his" always dislike "do", perhaps "undertake"? "pursue"?
  • "comprehensive university that would be the leading university" repetitive.
  • "secular" link.
  • "the Ratio Studiorum should" shouldn't that be in italics?
  • "of the university. He introduced new courses" could merge these two short sentences.
  • "He also standardized the curriculum" in what sense?
    • If I had to take a guess, I'd say it means he brought it in line with the curricula of other medical schools, but the source simply does not elaborate. Ergo Sum 03:03, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "care of the Sisters of Saint Francis" that's a dab page.
    • Changed to a better link. Ergo Sum 03:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with Bishop John Keane to" is there a link for Bishop?
    • This is already linked. Ergo Sum 03:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "under Patrick F. Healy but whose" who was he?
    • Added brief explanation. Ergo Sum 03:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "invited Johann Hagen to " overlinked.
    • Forgot that I already introduced Hagen. Rephrased. Ergo Sum 03:30, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in South Africa, so" no need to link common geographical locations.
  • " Boston Alumni Sodality" I don't think it's appropriate to part-link formally titled entities.
    • I agree with you but I thought an exception might do well here because a sodality isn't a very common term or concept. Ergo Sum 03:31, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " in Los Gatos, California in March" comma after CA.
  • "a short while " -> "a brief period".
  • "returned to Los Gatos in April. In the summer of 1901, he returned" returned/returned...
  • "scholastics" what are they?
  • Ref 9, spaced hyphen should be unspaced en-dash.
  • "succeeded by James J. Kilroy" that accounts for one position, but there are three positions in the sucboxes at the end of the article which suggest that Kilroy succeeded Richards. Where are those mentioned/cited?
    • Added refs and clarified phrasing. I cannot find a ref that explicitly says he was succeeded by Kilroy as pastor, but as the text says, the pastorship of the church and president of the schools were at this time always held by the same person, so it logically follows that his successor was Kilroy. Ergo Sum 04:01, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have. I realise that some of the comments do nothing other than expose my ignorance, but that might be helpful for a FA review to ensure our readers get it all. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thorough review, The Rambling Man. Ergo Sum 04:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, looks good to me, so I'm happy to support. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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